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Solar powered .ca
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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1580
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr 2012, 16:29    Post_subject:  

To Add,

Just in case there is controversy generated on this thread about solar...remember that the internet is.....
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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr 2012, 19:11    Post_subject:  

Caneri wrote:

All in all, I think it's worth the effort to promote solar, as it can't hurt to have a source of power when Dec 21 2012 comes along...yikes...Eric


I'm waiting for the power source to be delivered by the flying saucer...after all, it is high-tech.

Thom
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sun 29 Apr 2012, 23:57    Post_subject: Germany's Green Energy Shift  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dTXc4GaTszQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXUY-bNxI5w&feature=relmfu

By comparison America's Bioeconomy Blueprint

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7pciW7d3h0&feature=relmfu

Did someone say BS?.....

It should be obvious which is preferable, I hope...?

Aitch Smile
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infromthepound

Joined: 12 Jun 2009
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon 30 Apr 2012, 07:50    Post_subject:  

[url]
Quote:
Did someone say BS?.....

It should be obvious which is preferable, I hope...?

Aitch

Yes, you can use BS as fertiliser
jb
[/url]
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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1580
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu 03 May 2012, 15:48    Post_subject:  

Hiya Thom, you old hillbilly, fish eatin', piss me off, fresh fish access kind 'O guy. I hope you are well..... after that bad mouthing...I would like some UFO to save us from ourselves to put "peace" back into the equations and not just how long to stop war...good grief Charlie Brown.

@sunburnt,

I think 30A is what we will run at.....I was wondering about that with the cable size so 30A fits better with the length of wire...electricians will get it at least.

Eric

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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5042
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu 03 May 2012, 21:29    Post_subject:  

Caneri; If it`s a thick electrical cable like a water pipe it may be 60 amps...

So if it`s 30 amps at 330 volts, that`s 10,000 watts of power!!!
That seems like a lot, enough to run an energy efficient home!
( Switched use of the A.C., electric stove / oven, and clothes dryer. )
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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1580
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu 03 May 2012, 22:20    Post_subject:  

Yup sunburnt it's 10,000 watts or 10kW/h as far as I know and the cable is approx 1/2 inch (including casing) with 3 or 4 leads to the main breaker then on to the transformer

So it should do 10,000 watts every hour in pristine conditions.

More to come when I understand it all.

Eric

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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1734
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Fri 04 May 2012, 04:03    Post_subject:  

Caneri wrote:
Hiya Thom, you old hillbilly, fish eatin', piss me off, fresh fish access kind 'O guy. I hope you are well..... after that bad mouthing...


Man....what an accurate description! Yea, I'm as well as can be expected for an old curmudgeon. Trust you are well also.

Quote:

I would like some UFO to save us from ourselves to put "peace" back into the equations and not just how long to stop war


Would be nice....and as probable as the folks in Redmond getting out of the computer biz.

T
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Sylvander

Joined: 15 Dec 2008
Posts: 3517
Location: West Lothian, Scotland, UK

PostPosted: Fri 04 May 2012, 05:06    Post_subject:  

1.
Caneri wrote:
it's 10,000 watts or 10kW/h

As someone who was educated/trained/worked in Engineering...
If I can still remember...My old brain tends to fail to remember all that detail.
My understanding is...
(a) Watts are a RATE...
Like a flow rate...[e.g. gallons per minute]
Or a rate of production or usage.
(b) kW-hrs [there is no such thing as kW/hr]...
Is a QUANTITY.
(c) e.g. If you use electrical energy [Joules] at the rate of 10,000 Watts...
i.e. 10,000 Joules per second.
And you do that for 1 second...
You will have used 10,000 Joules = 10,000 watt-seconds
[A Watt is a Joule per second, a Joule is a Watt-second, i.e. a Watt expended for 1 sec]
(d) 10 kW-hrs = 10,000 watt-hours = 10,000 x 3,600 = 36,000,000 watt-seconds = 36,000,000 Joules = 36 Mega-Joules = 36 MJ.

And...
2.
Caneri wrote:
So it should do 10,000 watts every hour

(a) Imagine cars travelling past a given point on a motorway:
Lets say there were 10,000 cars passing every hour.
And I invented a name for the RATE at which cars were flowing/passing.
Lets say cars-per-hour = cph.
[Like the name "watts" in the case of electricity]
Then I shouldn't say there are 10,000 cph every hour...
Unless what I mean is that there is a constant rate of flow...
It's the same every hour.
Only then might I reasonably say the there are 10,000 cph...
Not just this hour...
Or that hour...
But EVERY HOUR.
Actually, its every minute, of every hour, of every day, of every month, of every year.
Why choose to mention hours alone?
Doesn't make sense.
What you'd normally say is...
That the flow rate is a fairly constant/unvarying 10,000 cph.

(b) And one-hour of flow at 10,000 cph-hour =10,000 cars.
i.e. A total flow of 10,000 cph over the period of a single hour...
Is a total flow [which is a quantity not a RATE] of 10,000 cars.

2. Does that lot make any sense?
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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1580
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Fri 04 May 2012, 08:06    Post_subject:  

Thanks Sylvander,

Hope you are well.

Makes more sense then my guessing about it.

I never studied the math side of electricity even though I do wiring jobs from time to time.

Eric

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2668
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 04 May 2012, 10:04    Post_subject:  

aarf wrote:
marvelous Very Happy .
big commercial solar seems to be heading to those parabolic trough type reflector that boil stuff.
often wish i had the motivation and ability to actually do material things:)


Heat is a useful route, if you can convert it to electrical energy with some ease.

Most of the solar spectrum in not at a wavelength that is useful for PV systems (and heating actually decreases their output).

Bulk heating can consume all wavelengths.

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012, 13:53    Post_subject:  

Sylvander/others

Watts isn't the originator of rate at all...it is the power of the pressure in volts MULTIPLIED BY the rate of flow of current in amps

Formula: P(watts)=E(volts)xI(amps)

The water analogy explains it

Watt-hrs is the number of hours the power has been flowing/is used/created

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/energy/question501.htm

Joules is a measure of the energy

http://ezinearticles.com/?Watts,-BTU,-Joules---What-Do-They-Mean?-Energy-Terms-Explained&id=3883976

We used to measure energy in Btu, which equated to HP more easily, as 746watts=1HP=2545 Btu/hr

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/phy99/phy99x45.htm

ha ha, that's possibly added to the confusion...[I'm old school]

sorry to be late with the response guys

Aitch Smile
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2668
Location: USA

PostPosted: Mon 07 May 2012, 14:30    Post_subject:  

Aitch wrote:
Sylvander/others

Watts isn't the originator of rate at all...it is the power of the pressure in volts MULTIPLIED BY the rate of flow of current in amps

Formula: P(watts)=E(volts)xI(amps)

The water analogy explains it

Watt-hrs is the number of hours the power has been flowing/is used/created


And so, you want to accumulate enough "gallons" to keep you going during the dry period.

Using that, at 10 kW, you accumulate ~ 10 kW-h of energy each hour at that rate.

Depending on your location, you might only get 4-6 hours of full sun, which would be 40-60 kW-h of energy (assuming 100% efficiency, etc).

Most homes draw well in excess of 1kW, or > 24 kW-h per day.

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2012, 11:59    Post_subject:  

To be aware of the extravagance of energy, that 10kW equates to about 13.4HP per hour - imagine feeding, watering and looking after those horses for all the work they are doing......

The simple [rough] memory reminder I used to use was 3kW per hour=4HP per hour=10000BTU [as BTUs is energy used, whereas Watts is a measure of power]
In modern parlance, a Joule per second is a Watt, so Joules mount up pretty quickly

http://www.mhi-inc.com/Converter/watt_calculator.htm

We really should be thinking in terms of using less, not how to (re)produce what we usually waste....generally as heat losses on our buildings

Aitch Smile
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2668
Location: USA

PostPosted: Tue 08 May 2012, 12:39    Post_subject:  

Aitch wrote:
To be aware of the extravagance of energy, that 10kW equates to about 13.4HP per hour - imagine feeding, watering and looking after those horses for all the work they are doing......

The simple [rough] memory reminder I used to use was 3kW per hour=4HP per hour=10000BTU [as BTUs is energy used, whereas Watts is a measure of power]
In modern parlance, a Joule per second is a Watt, so Joules mount up pretty quickly

http://www.mhi-inc.com/Converter/watt_calculator.htm

We really should be thinking in terms of using less, not how to (re)produce what we usually waste....generally as heat losses on our buildings

Aitch Smile


It's not so much that he will be burning 10kW, it's that in the depths of winter, he might only get an average of 2-4 hours full sunlight/day (NREL shows that November tends to be the worst month, due to general cloudiness).

But potential solar power is only part of the equation, the other half is storage vessel. The peeps I know who use solar recommend 3-5 days worth of storage capacity, in addition to a backup generator (just in case you get a long stretch of cloudy weather).

You can shrink the storage...the more willing you are to use the genny to cover shortfalls.

In the US, the average home uses about 11,500 kW-h per year.

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97&t=3

There are 8760 hours/year, so they're burning an average of 1.3 kW.

Another perspective:

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/actions/HouseholdEnergy.html

Because of the 3-5 day storage recommendation, those who run solar power also recommend working hard to get your average consumption down to about 500 W, before migrating to solar... Not quite a factor of 3 reduction for storage batteries...

Another thing to consider is, while the sun doesn't shine at night, the wind often blows -- a combo system might be a choice.

However, given the size of that solar grid, I suspect that Caneri is planning to produce surplus power, and sell it back to the grid (then the grid becomes the "storage battery").

From that standpoint, solar works well -- peak power generally occurs during the day, with everyone running their air conditioners and such. If their capacity increases during the day, this reduces the need to build new power plants. Decentralizing power production also has the benefit that you can potentially reduce the losses that occur in the grid (one drawback is that you also have a massive book-keeping problem, shutting down all those sources, when you need to work on parts of the grid).

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