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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 04:00    Post subject:  

jemimah wrote:
Working with with other people is harder than building technology.

Oh, yeah! I'm hearing ya, mate. Laughing

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 04:06    Post subject:  

Terryphi wrote:
The inconvenient fact for the Puppy community is that Barry has produced the best Puppy yet (i.e. Quirky) which I would happily recommend to a newbie. The only "problem" is Barry's continued support for Seamonkey. However, it can be easily removed and replaced by another browser such as Opera or Firefox.

I don't understand this obsession with the "latest and greatest" just because it is. Barry has made it perfectly clear that Quirky will be "a moving target" and doesn't recommend it as a mainstream replacement.

There is nothing "inconvenient" about Quirky and its current performance and stability. OTOH, I wouldn't be broadcasting Quirky - "a completely new distro" - as an alternative to mainstream Puppy. Maybe down the track but it's way too early to tell at the moment.

I'm sorry, Terry, but what you recommend to newbies or anyone else can come back and bite you on the behind if you don't think very carefully about it first.

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4765
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 06:42    Post subject: Lucid Puppy  

jemimah wrote:
.. I think LuPu has been officially blessed though. I'm not sure if enough of the community is on board here or not - I don't follow the lucid threads very much. Unfortunately Ubuntu brings a lot of politics with it too.


Yes, Lucid Puppy will be a good test of Woof as applied on Ubuntu Lucid Lynx. I just tested version 114 and it configured the video mode of my Sempron+nVidia PC automatically. It also handled the question "Which browser do you want?" very well using its quickpet installer.

Playdayz has been contributing tricks to Puppy, one of which is the use of VirtualBox. He has been playing with UPup for some time.

IMHO, a new official Puppy needs to address the issues of looks, drivers and packages, in addition to its quirkiness (being bleeding-edge Smile ). With Quirky released ahead of LuPup, playdayz can simply adopt the goodies in Quirky. Am sure WhoDo has ideas about the possible good looks.

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Gurglin

Joined: 13 Nov 2008
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 06:55    Post subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
Ok *tries again*.
I am a random person who has heard somebody talk about puppy linux.
I then google "puppy linux" and get first up:
www.puppylinux.org
I go to that and see I can choose the "Downloads" page which makes me go "aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh how do I know which to pick??????? This is too hard and complicated!!!!!11111"
or I can go to the "Download latest release" and see ONE nice easy option with instructions.

This one nice easy option needs to be maintained regularly and reliably, must be generic enough that the majority of users/devs can give support, and problems fixed immediately.

This version is going to be the face of puppy. It will get people in the door. It has to work and it has to be supported. This is what will get people to see the other versions and want to try them too.

Too many choices too soon is not good.


I am completely with you, with what you write here and in other posts.

I wrote down a similar concern on another post ( Lost in April announcement 4.4 & 4.3.2 & 5 ) and on the Barry's Blog.
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Terryphi


Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Posts: 760
Location: West Wales, Britain.

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 09:04    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
Terryphi wrote:
The inconvenient fact for the Puppy community is that Barry has produced the best Puppy yet (i.e. Quirky) which I would happily recommend to a newbie. The only "problem" is Barry's continued support for Seamonkey. However, it can be easily removed and replaced by another browser such as Opera or Firefox.


but that was not was some wrote just a month ago. You could not remove SM without affecting libs needed for other programs.

But sure that maybe has been dealt with then in some clever way? Has it?


This is what I did:

All files related to Seamonkey removed.
Reset defaultbrowser in /usr/local/bin to firefox.
Reset defaulthtmlviewer in /usr/local/bin to firefox.


I also deleted these files in /usr/local/bin : gtkmoz mozaddressbook mozedit mozmail mozstart netscape). (Files gtkmoz and netscape were symlinks to mozstart.)

To make CUPS Printer Wizard work it was necessary to do this:

In /usr/sbin/cups_shell comment out 3 lines under USEBROWSER="defaultbrowser":
#[ -f /usr/bin/netsurf-barewindow ] && USEBROWSER="netsurf-barewindow"
#[ -f /usr/local/bin/bareview ] && USEBROWSER="bareview" #from gtkmoz pkg.
#[ -f /usr/local/bin/cupsview ] && USEBROWSER="cupsview" #w471 from gtkmoz pkg.

Remove in /usr/share/applications Seamonkey items. Then fixmenus.

Eight files in /usr/lib/seamonkey-x.x.xx are needed for Flash to work in Opera:
libmozjs.so libnspr4.so libnss3.so libnssutil3.so libplc4.so libplds4.so libsmime3.so libssl3.so

Although they are present in /usr/lib/firefox Opera could not find them there so I created symlinks to them in /usr/lib and Opera was happy.

I do not use all Puppy programmes so I cannot guarantee that this does not break something else.

Importantly, all this does is hide Seamonkey. It is still present in the quirky-100.sfs file. So.... there is not much point in removing Seamonkey you could just reset the default browser as described above.
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 9106
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 09:18    Post subject:  

Terryphi wrote:
The inconvenient fact for the Puppy community is that Barry has produced the best Puppy yet (i.e. Quirky) which I would happily recommend to a newbie.

I agree. If Barry had never posted his original Quirky mission statement and had simply released Quirky 1.0 as Puppy 5.0, none of this discussion would be going on. (Except for the Seamonkey business). Wink
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 09:48    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
Terryphi wrote:
The inconvenient fact for the Puppy community is that Barry has produced the best Puppy yet (i.e. Quirky) which I would happily recommend to a newbie.

I agree. If Barry had never posted his original Quirky mission statement and had simply released Quirky 1.0 as Puppy 5.0, none of this discussion would be going on. (Except for the Seamonkey business). Wink


Yes but he has his mind on how to do things so I am prepared to just deal with his ways. If he wants it that way what could I do about it. He simply prefer seamonkey and to launch Q1.00 and not launch a Puppy 5.00

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2668
Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 10:07    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
rcrsn51 wrote:
Terryphi wrote:
The inconvenient fact for the Puppy community is that Barry has produced the best Puppy yet (i.e. Quirky) which I would happily recommend to a newbie.

I agree. If Barry had never posted his original Quirky mission statement and had simply released Quirky 1.0 as Puppy 5.0, none of this discussion would be going on. (Except for the Seamonkey business). Wink


Yes but he has his mind on how to do things so I am prepared to just deal with his ways. If he wants it that way what could I do about it. He simply prefer seamonkey and to launch Q1.00 and not launch a Puppy 5.00


Let's keep in mind that Barry is going to do what Barry finds to be fun. He owes us nothing (we aren't paying him, are we?).

Let us just be happy that we can reap the benefits of his fine work.

And let us also recognize the hard work by all the volunteers, supporters and enthusiasts as well!

Ladies and gentlemen, I salute you!
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capoverde


Joined: 28 Jun 2006
Posts: 233
Location: Sanremo (Italy) with fine seaview

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 14:07    Post subject:  

Second that 100%! Hearty thanks from me, too.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 15:37    Post subject:  

Quote:
Ladies and gentlemen, I salute you!


I sure agree with that. I don't agree with everything they do but I salute that they have fun and do what they love to do. I would have no OS without them.

So one hundred from me too. Smile

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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3411
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Thu 06 May 2010, 18:59    Post subject:  

" jemimah wrote:
Working with with other people is harder than building technology.

Oh, yeah! I'm hearing ya, mate. :lol: "

""""""""""
I heard an echo....is this about moi.

Chris.
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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1290
Location: UK

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 08:07    Post subject:  

rcrsn51

Quote:
If Barry had never posted his original Quirky mission statement and had simply released Quirky 1.0 as Puppy 5.0, none of this discussion would be going on. (Except for the Seamonkey business).


You don't seem to get what WhoDo is telling you. Quirky is different to Puppy. It has a different mission statement and Barry, thankfully, declared it as such.

The fundamental difference is that Quirky is experimental and subject to rapid changes. I consider it a bit like Debian unstable only possibly more unstable. This is fine for a developers distro.

Now Lobster and others tells us that Puppy is a developers distro and this maybe why you are happy to say Quirky can be recommended as the next Puppy.

Now, I may be wrong but I think for a recommendation to other users Puppy needs to be a users distro - a bit like Debian stable to use the analogy above.

Now I know a lot here don't agree we should cater for users and these people are entitled to that opinion. I think that is the nub of the problem actually.

The leading players here see Puppy as a developers distro. Some of us think Puppy is so good it would be beneficial to users and we want a users distro.

This is why there is this recurring discussion and it will not go away as long as new usercentric people come to the forum to replace those that shut up/depart after being continually browbeaten by the developercentric members of the forum.

Until now Barry has managed to keep both camps happy very successfully with Puppy. Now, he seems to want to concentrate on development so he has formed Quirky for that need.

Summary:
Quirky can be the next Puppy (Developers edition)
Puppy 4.3.1 is the current Puppy (Users edition).

Next Puppy (users edition)? Technosaurus and Puppy 4.4 seems nearest, but that is just my opinion.
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 9106
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 08:18    Post subject:  

ICPUG wrote:
Quirky is different to Puppy

Have you actually tried Quirky yet?
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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 09:03    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
ICPUG wrote:
Quirky is different to Puppy

Have you actually tried Quirky yet?

The problem with Quirky is that it may be great and stable now, but it is going to change frequently, quickly, and drastically according to Barry. That makes it unsuitable.

Yes 431 is the current official stable promoted release, but it can't stay stagnant. Something will sooner or later have to replace it. And as I said before, whatever replaces it has to be supported officially by somebody authorized, willing, and able to officially support, maintain, and fix things.


@ICPUG: I agree with everything you said and this made me laugh and made my day, thank you:
ICPUG wrote:
This is why there is this recurring discussion and it will not go away as long as new usercentric people come to the forum to replace those that shut up/depart after being continually browbeaten by the developercentric members of the forum.

I have noticed is that whenever anybody tries to discuss this problem, there are a few who jump in and start the "all hail Barry and the devs and they are only here to have fun and we should be grateful and shut up!!!!" mantra. YES we are grateful, yes we do all hail the devs and Barry, but there is still a problem! It needs to be discussed! Stop trying to distract everyone from the real issues and stop accusing us of not paying sufficient and appropriate homage. It is really irritating and simply not true.
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 09:06    Post subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
ICPUG wrote:
Quirky is different to Puppy

Have you actually tried Quirky yet?

Whether ICPUG has or hasn't tried Quirky isn't the point. The point is that as usable and apparently stable as Quirky appears to you now, it is Barry's expressed intention to deliberately destabilize it by experimenting on it with new and different, dare I say even "quirky", ideas. Even his announcement on Distrowatch makes that abundantly clear.

If you are happy with Quirky 1.0 then I say bully for you and bully for Barry too. Don't expect it to last. If it does, that will be great, but just don't expect it to. IT IS EXPERIMENTAL! When the subsequent experiments start affecting your system, or those to whom you have recommended his bleeding edge approach, are you then going to whine that Barry has "forgotten about his loyal following" and created a monster?

And whatever you do don't follow ecomoney's example with 4.20 and start recommending it to all and sundry before it's had a chance to bed in with different hardware, etc. If you've followed Barry's blog you will know that he already has a host of changes planned for Quirky 1.1 and that's without any pure experimentation to speak of.

The next Puppy 4.x series will either be 4.3.2 (ttuuxxx) or 4.4 (technosaurus), and the next Puppy generation (5.x series) will either be Lucid Puppy (playdayz) or Debian Puppy (gposil). All of these Puppy's are in various stages of development. Quirky, on the other hand, is a whole new distribution - albeit created by the creator of Puppy using the Woof build system. It is NOT Puppy, it IS Quirky.

Thanks, ICPUG. It's nice to know that at least someone here understood my meaning. A new BK release appears to be a mighty powerful aphrodisiac around here, with symptoms that often include rose-tinted vision and rampant euphoria. I've been known to fall victim myself at times. Razz

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