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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 09:11    Post_subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
The problem with Quirky is that it may be great and stable now, but it is going to change frequently, quickly, and drastically according to Barry. That makes it unsuitable.

... and shariebeth makes two! Is it too soon to declare a tsunami of common sense is about to overtake sections of this community??? Shocked

BTW, I do remember being on the OTHER side of the questions you raised last time. I'm not fickle ... I just believe there's never always one right or wrong point of view every time an issue is addressed, especially one as complex as "direction" in a volunteer organisation. Wink

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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
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Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 09:14    Post_subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
The problem with Quirky is that it may be great and stable now, but it is going to change frequently, quickly, and drastically according to Barry.

And how is that different from any other new Puppy throughout its history?
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 09:16    Post_subject:  

cthisbear wrote:
" jemimah wrote:
Working with with other people is harder than building technology.

Oh, yeah! I'm hearing ya, mate. Laughing "

""""""""""
I heard an echo....is this about moi.

Chris.

Typical! Just for the record, it's NOT always all about you, Chris! Laughing

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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 09:28    Post_subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
shariebeth wrote:
The problem with Quirky is that it may be great and stable now, but it is going to change frequently, quickly, and drastically according to Barry.

And how is that different from any other new Puppy throughout its history?

Well as far as i can see it, Quirky was made to be experimental and any oddities are intentional and Barry is going to push it beyond limits to see how far he can push it. I don't think Quirky was ever intended to be suitable for the masses. The fact it is "right now" is a happy accident in my opinion.

Other puppies have been made to work to suit certain needs. Even though Puppy is groundbreaking in many areas, they were still made to work.
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 09:29    Post_subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
shariebeth wrote:
The problem with Quirky is that it may be great and stable now, but it is going to change frequently, quickly, and drastically according to Barry.

And how is that different from any other new Puppy throughout its history?

Ok you are still missing the point ... Quirky is NOT Puppy. It doesn't follow Puppy's aims and objectives for a starter. Instead of "just works" as an aim for Puppy, Barry is going to deliberately experiment with things in Quirky that "may not work". That is why he created it as a different distro ... so people who are used to the stability of Puppy would not be fooled. He even named the distro to make his intentions crystal clear.

If you like it and it works for you, who's going to stop you from using it? Not me. OTOH, I don't believe you should let your Quirky euphoria tempt you into exposing newbies to the possibility that some things will be deliberately broken in the name of a learning experience that is called experimentation.

If you don't get it now, rcrsn51, I guess we'll just have to A2D and go our separate ways.

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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 09:49    Post_subject:  

WhoDo wrote:
BTW, I do remember being on the OTHER side of the questions you raised last time. I'm not fickle ... I just believe there's never always one right or wrong point of view every time an issue is addressed, especially one as complex as "direction" in a volunteer organisation. Wink

Whew! I was thinking this is where I am supposed to be scared or the world is coming to an end... Wink
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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1104
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 10:47    Post_subject:  

WhoDo wrote:

Quote:
I just believe there's never always one right or wrong point of view every time an issue is addressed, especially one as complex as "direction" in a volunteer organisation.


The woman who directs the Mozilla organisation (I forget her name. she's the big boss there) has recently been talking about project directional strategy. She also ought to know a thing or two about what makes an open-source project tick.

To cut a long story short, she makes the point that so many developers (thousands of them worldwide) give so freely of their unpaid time, for the reason that they can influence the direction in which the project moves. She includes Firefox extension programmers here.

There is a ring of truth about this IMHO. It also makes a strong point that it is the open-source developers who therefore come first in the queue when important decisions about projects need to be made.

I'm talking about senior developers here.

However, since developers are also end-users themselves, it's safe to assume that they ought to understand and appreciate the concerns of the end-users as well.

I don't then see why a developer experimental version should necessarily be viewed as being unsuitable for new users per se. A particularly stable version of Quirky could be recommended to a beginner IMHO. In a case where the experimental versions appear to become too "experimental" for noobies, there is no compulsion on anyone to base an end-user version on such a platform. An end-user fork could be started based on the last-known stable version.

That way, the work of the developer can be used to benefit the end-users as well.

I reckon that end-users really need to get their heads round the fact that developers give their time for free. If things don't always quite turn out as they would like, then that's just the way it is. Most good developers though, will give of their all to ensure that the broadest possible user base gets something they can truly make good use of. Barry is the best example here. Quirky illustrates this point very clearly.

It would be sensible though to make clear to any newbies to whom you are making recommendations, the nature of some of these newer versions. True of other distros as well.

WhoDo is certainly right though when he says it's a good idea to cover your ass when recommending anything to anyone. "sicher ist sicher" (German for you can't be too careful).

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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2669
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 13:49    Post_subject:  

shariebeth wrote:
rcrsn51 wrote:
ICPUG wrote:
Quirky is different to Puppy

Have you actually tried Quirky yet?

The problem with Quirky is that it may be great and stable now, but it is going to change frequently, quickly, and drastically according to Barry. That makes it unsuitable.


So don't use Quirky, if you are worried about it. If you were to ask me, I would recommend that you stick to a mainstream Puppy version, rather than an early-Beta test OS.

Here's the thing, Puppy makes it very easy to use multiple OS versions (assuming you use Frugal or live-boot CD installs).

I wouldn't recommend Quirky as your first OS. It might work absolutely great, or it might be very, very "quirky" and unstable...

So if you're a newbie, rather than getting frustrated, use one of the main-stream stable releases (perhaps a "retro", depending on your hardware needs).

Get your feet wet. Learn your way around Linux, and Puppy. [and let me add: BACK UP YOUR PUPSAVE, ONCE YOU GET IT WORKING!!! -- this gives you a restore point, when you break things in playing with it]

THEN, after using the mainstream version has imparted some mastery and skill, you can think about playing in the unstable world.

And, since you have a working copy of the stable version, you can still use that when the other doesn't work. Keep it as your safety net.

If you eventually migrate to the bleeding-edge, you still have the old, stable standby as your backup OS.

Quote:
Yes 431 is the current official stable promoted release, but it can't stay stagnant. Something will sooner or later have to replace it. And as I said before, whatever replaces it has to be supported officially by somebody authorized, willing, and able to officially support, maintain, and fix things.


BTW, Ttuuxxx had released 4.3.2 which includes some patches (I suspect that this is going to become "official"). Though I haven't yet migrated to it, I believe the changes were minimal, and have seen no critical error reports, so I would recommend starting there.
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James C


Joined: 26 Mar 2009
Posts: 5934
Location: Kentucky

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 14:20    Post_subject:  

I'm actually using 4.32 for my primary system......I'm certain when Ttuuxxx's new job (real life Laughing) allows him some time he'll finalize the release.
AFAIK, Barry K has already said it'll be an official release.
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RetroTechGuy


Joined: 15 Dec 2009
Posts: 2669
Location: USA

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 14:46    Post_subject:  

rcrsn51 wrote:
ICPUG wrote:
Quirky is different to Puppy

Have you actually tried Quirky yet?


BTW, a question about Quirky. It is compatible with Puppy 4.3.1? (i.e., can I safely feed it my existing pupsave?)
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 18:32    Post_subject:  

tronkel wrote:
That way, the work of the developer can be used to benefit the end-users as well.

Barry always said that what works in Quirky would end up in Puppy via Woof. I have no problem with that ... in fact it's the way Puppy has progressed so far. Pizzapup, Grafpup, and a whole host of others have contributed along the way. I just don't think that a clearly experimental distro is a safe place for newbies to park their hopes and desires. I'm sure the only reason Barry released Quirky as a distro in its own right was to broaden the base of developers who could feed the project with new and innovative ideas. I agree with the suggestion that Quirky is effectively Puppy's "unstable branch". That makes it unsuitable for raw newbies in a general sense. That's not to say that an individual release isn't newbie-friendly, as Quirky 1.0 appears to be from all reports.

tronkel wrote:
I reckon that end-users really need to get their heads round the fact that developers give their time for free. If things don't always quite turn out as they would like, then that's just the way it is. Most good developers though, will give of their all to ensure that the broadest possible user base gets something they can truly make good use of. Barry is the best example here. Quirky illustrates this point very clearly.

Well Quirky 1.0 apparently does. It won't stay that way though Jack, as Barry has clearly stated. The current release "isn't particularly quirky"(sic) he said in the release notes.

As for users needing to "get their heads round" the nature of open source development, I agree. Still there is room to cut refugees some slack in that regard. They come from a world where they have paid good money to be delivered, at times, a Beta class product. Micro$oft is renowned for doing that to recoup development costs before releasing a more stable version by "service pack"; what an oxymoron that name is! Complaining has been their only recourse to have any hope of being heard by the monolithic machine of M$. It will take time and patience for them to appreciate the FOSS culture and warm to it.

tronkel wrote:
It would be sensible though to make clear to any newbies to whom you are making recommendations, the nature of some of these newer versions. True of other distros as well.

My point exactly.

tronkel wrote:
WhoDo is certainly right though when he says it's a good idea to cover your ass when recommending anything to anyone. "sicher ist sicher" (German for you can't be too careful).

And when your "ass" is the size of mine, covering it takes some doing so start early and work hard at it! Laughing

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WhoDo


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PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 18:41    Post_subject:  

James C wrote:
I'm actually using 4.32 for my primary system......I'm certain when Ttuuxxx's new job (real life Laughing) allows him some time he'll finalize the release.
AFAIK, Barry K has already said it'll be an official release.

Yep! And hopefully that will buy technosaurus some time to bring 4.4 to fruition too. I see that Barry is considering 4.4 to be an actual "fork", so it must have some geniune innovations of its own to offer. As the "stable branch" of Puppy, it's good that techno is taking his time in proving them.

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WhoDo


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PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 18:44    Post_subject:  

RetroTechGuy wrote:
rcrsn51 wrote:
ICPUG wrote:
Quirky is different to Puppy

Have you actually tried Quirky yet?


BTW, a question about Quirky. It is compatible with Puppy 4.3.1? (i.e., can I safely feed it my existing pupsave?)

Exactly the sort of question that needs to be answered before parading it to newbies, because they won't ask they'll just assume. Wink

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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4796
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 20:01    Post_subject: continuity  

One point that needs to be added to the discussion is continuity (or consistency, if you so prefer). Quirky shall be free to break this continuity, whereas a user-oriented build needs to preserve it. Let us have some examples:

- drivers: "It used to work in version n-1, now it doesn't in version n!" One good example is RT73 USB dongle. There is a fix somewhere, but was the fix ever published as a service pack under "official release"?

- pfix: "pfix=ram still gets my drive mounted in version n! In prior versions, no drive is left mounted."

- pup-431.sfs: "It's no longer underscore, it's a hyphen!"

This is important because as Puppy Linux gets popular, more and more people ask questions about it. And if I were a wannabee dev (or an "expert" user), I want to make sure that my explanations to newbies would not be invalidated in short notice, or in no notice at all.

In this regard, has anyone tried "pfix=ram" in Quirky yet? Does it leave your drive unmounted? Until the community has checked on questions like these, the new release may not be ready for public consumption.

Of course the old argument "But it is free" may be used to downgrade the importance of this point, but as enthusiasts of the distro, we also want to simplify support, as we are the ones obliged to offer it to users.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
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Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 07 May 2010, 23:53    Post_subject:  

Hi guys as 4.32 goes Yes I'll do another update, I've been real busy with work lately its been about 11hr days from the time I leave and get home and been really exhausted, then on the past few weekends I've been painting the house and finishing the 5th bedroom for an up and coming visit we are having that could provide me with tons of free time once my job is finished in about 3 weeks. Then I'll focus more on 4 series. my work week is about about 80hrs if you include the weekends so I don't have much time, but very soon my schedule will be freed-up somewhat.

Also I don agree that Barry shouldn't of over looked 2.14x since its really a community edition that has spanned over 1yr. It'll be released as "Retro Pup 2.14x"

take care all
ttuuxxx

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