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Saluki, Puppy Remastered
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sun 05 Sep 2010, 04:44    Post subject:  

Quote:
I want a raw version


You are talking Sushi
(I like it already)

Joe I know you and Jemimah have been chatting
I can not get into the developer chat room
any more (just as well) Rolling Eyes

I am quite happy to use your pre woof Slackware base
and modify the wiki page as it emerges

Are Jemimah and Ttuuxxx along for the ride too?
Ttuuxxx is invaluable and Jemimah has a proven track record
with Puppeee and Fluppy.

What I am trying to establish is an initiative from the developer pool
that says we are gonna try and create Puppy 6

Quote:
everyone adds the best they have to offer

Butterflys + fish = flying fish
If that is your sort of fish supper
I will bring the chips

Puppys are penguins
Fish for breakfast!

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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Sun 05 Sep 2010, 15:17    Post subject:  

The developer chatroom I think is kinda dead. I've been hanging out on IRC as time permits. It's more fun there.

Barry would have to approve anything called Puppy 6. I'm with big_bass - I don't much care if the status is "official".

I don't have enough ambition to start something on my own from scratch. But I will contribute to interesting projects if asked.
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10730
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 05 Sep 2010, 17:34    Post subject:  

[quote="Lobster"]
Quote:
I want a raw version

Are Jemimah and Ttuuxxx along for the ride too?
Ttuuxxx is invaluable and Jemimah has a proven track record
with Puppeee and Fluppy.

Well Lobster I'm here as long as distro size matters, Really my home pc's can run the latest full size distros, but puppy is suppose to be small, for people who need resources. Like I mentioned before it has grown almost 50% between puppy 4.0 and 5.0, I won't support that! Plus that's with a higher sfs compression ratio. If someone wants to build a base, I'm willing to compile 100+ apps like I did for 2.14X and 4.2. Either Wary or from scratch is fine with me, but we need to stick to the grass roots, Mplayer on wary I've found not to be stable, Pmusic wouldn't play mp3's either, maybe its a alsa/oss issue. I like the idea of a older mature kernel and Xorg, with the latest gtk2,glibc.
ttuuxxx

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Stripe

Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Posts: 642
Location: In a field. England

PostPosted: Sun 05 Sep 2010, 17:55    Post subject:  

Hi all

I know that I am a newbie, but enjoyed testing the Lucid puppies with 01micko, Playdayz and the team (and learnt a lot from it) , and would be willing to help test (try to break) any new puppies.
It is hard to get people to agree on the next step forward, but look forward to puppy 6 (When it is agreed what it should be)

Cheers
Stripe
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Sun 05 Sep 2010, 18:27    Post subject:  

Technosaurus mentioned being interested in building a suitable base. I'm not sure where he's at with that though. Maybe he'll chime in here.
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big_bass

Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 1747

PostPosted: Sun 05 Sep 2010, 18:59    Post subject:  

Hey Jeff ! (ttuuxxx)

Quote:
I'm here as long as distro size matters,


as you know I used to maintain a small light derivative
because of the RAM (so even the old clunkers would work )and the standard complex method needed to remove pre installed packages
cleanly was a pain to sort out

and by you sticking to 214 X you see the need for this too

so yes an over all size of the iso is important

the build system and package management that I use allows you to remove pre installed packages and allows for an easy way to build the distro

note all the packages are going to get recompiled anyway whatever base Glib is used but my method dosent depend on woof or unleashed so you dont need to unravel that or modify it

basically just a text list of packages to be used or point it to a folder of packages
and a simple one line command cant get easier than that
thats the automatic way

there is also a GUI for the manual way with check boxes
for me now building with packages is the easier part

the part that takes the time is building all the packages
I have dragNdrop scripts to speed up the process

this is a method not a distro

the kernel makes the OS the packages make the distro
creative people make it happen in real time

Joe

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Mint would be best for general users though
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10730
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 05 Sep 2010, 20:42    Post subject:  

big_bass wrote:
Hey Jeff ! (ttuuxxx)

Quote:
I'm here as long as distro size matters,


as you know I used to maintain a small light derivative
because of the RAM (so even the old clunkers would work )and the standard complex method needed to remove pre installed packages
cleanly was a pain to sort out

and by you sticking to 214 X you see the need for this too

so yes an over all size of the iso is important

the build system and package management that I use allows you to remove pre installed packages and allows for an easy way to build the distro

note all the packages are going to get recompiled anyway whatever base Glib is used but my method dosent depend on woof or unleashed so you dont need to unravel that or modify it

basically just a text list of packages to be used or point it to a folder of packages
and a simple one line command cant get easier than that
thats the automatic way

there is also a GUI for the manual way with check boxes
for me now building with packages is the easier part

the part that takes the time is building all the packages
I have dragNdrop scripts to speed up the process

this is a method not a distro

the kernel makes the OS the packages make the distro
creative people make it happen in real time

Joe


Hi Joe I like the sound of that, I'll look into it this week. We both kind of think alike when it comes to overall picture. I guess I have some reading to do. Thanks for the info/link Smile

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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4134

PostPosted: Tue 07 Sep 2010, 16:58    Post subject:  

I've been working with goingnuts to develop Pup'nGo lately

Is there opposition to:
using a gcc-4.5.1 based devx derived from aboriginal
building a minimal base (see Pup'nGo) to remaster from, using a woof supported distro (including a from scratch repository...)
switch to tar.xz based packages (xz and lzma are now in busybox)
I think we have a lot of aquired knowledge of things like "the last version of libXYZ that didn't depend on libABC" or have a patch that removes said dependencies, so I am fine with not necessarily using the latest packages (Pango-1.24.5 for instance is better than more recent versions that pull in libstdc++)

oh and since autotools and waf are so pitiful we should probably build it in stages - adding dependencies one at a time. Start with only gtk2 and add dependencies only when the configure script begs for them and even after a hack it still won't build

Quote:
So ncurses ./configure has --without-cxx-binding but never tests either "is g++ installed on the host" or "does the host cc support c++". So it runs 8 gazillion probes, none of which is "disable c++ support", even though it has an option to do so manually.

Meanwhile, the distcc autoconf probes for python (and won't build python extensions if it's not in the $PATH), but does _not_ have any command line way to --disable-python. Because consistent behavior out of autoconf is anathema.




some significant events that come to mind since 4.X:
    Rob Landley's 1.0 recently releaseed aboriginal linux (formerly firmware linux)
    - good base for both rebuilding busybox etc... against static uclibc and for cross compiling with gnulibc in qemu
    gnash-0.8.8 finally came out last week - looks promising
    size of libflashplayer has nearly doubled in size and dependencies,
    however adobe now offers restricted access to flash-lite source
    pango switched to using C++ for freetype after 1.24.X (pulls in libstdc++)
    gtk2-2.20 added gobject-introspection requirement
    gtk2-2.22 will use cairo only as backend and separate gdk-pixbuf again (as it is in gtk-1.x)
    firefox/seamonkey now support using more system libs
    webkitgtk and chromium are now competitors to gecko and opera has some new stuff too
    xserver has added libpciacess as dependency
    Our community has patched many gnome dependent apps for gtk2 only
    Zigbert has pushed the envelope of gtkdialog
    Slitaz arrived on scene @30MB also utilizing some gtkdialog tricks
    goingnuts -hacked the puppy desktop down to <8mb iso
    after 4 years, vala is nearing a 1.0 release
    gtk3 is "coming soon"
    gcc has added whole program optimization using objects
    pcmanfm2 is doing well & could surpass Rox-filer

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big_bass

Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 1747

PostPosted: Tue 07 Sep 2010, 23:03    Post subject:  

as for the name Puppy 6
hmmm
being straight forward and open
I dont think that what I am doing lends itself to fit in with current development
as to be compatible with anything you could build with woof
or label puppy 6

so what does that mean ?



what is my goal is to build a distro

I thought about this long and hard and decided that going back to some
standard linux way with packages and a package management tool

would be understood by others that have built distros from packages
such as slackware, , arch , debian and others

more or less is can it be built another way?
and the answer is yes

is that the best answer for puppy ?
I dont think so but it works for me

and I have learned more going that path
without so called going with the flow


even a dead fish can float on down the river
but it takes a live fish to swim up stream


I do want to build from scratch is anyone else thinking about that?
it would be fun
something all contained in packages that I can or anyone else can keep updated
with just basic linux knowledge

*TXZ shows what has been done not in theory but in practice
there is still a long way to go but Im getting closer
and having fun in the process

Joe

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Mint would be best for general users though
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10730
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 02:05    Post subject:  

big_bass wrote:
as for the name Puppy 6
hmmm
being straight forward and open

I do want to build from scratch is anyone else thinking about that?
it would be fun
something all contained in packages that I can or anyone else can keep updated
with just basic linux knowledge

Joe

I'm willing to lend a hand to build from scratch. Any Idea where to start?
ttuuxxx

_________________
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http://samples.mplayerhq.hu/A-codecs/ <-- Codec Test Files
http://html5games.com/ <-- excellent HTML5 games Smile

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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 02:22    Post subject:  

Ttuuxxx

This is a good beginning
the smallest

Pup'nGo

Try that. Release an ISO and devx
see if it works

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8-bit


Joined: 03 Apr 2007
Posts: 3285
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 04:56    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:
Ttuuxxx

This is a good beginning
the smallest

Pup'nGo

Try that. Release an ISO and devx
see if it works


What I would like to see is something like Pup'nGO that had an automatic network setup so as to be able to download the packages to install or install them on the fiy after a download.
Then add an automatic remaster that one could automatically make an ISO that contained the packages one wanted in a personalized ISO with option to burn it.
I have tried using the Remaster that is included with Puppy and the last one that worked for me was an early offering by Dougal.
The current one has me jumping through hoops trying to get it to make a remastered ISO containing all installed packages.

What I really do not want to see is a rash of remastered ISO's based on Puppy 6 being offered for download.
That is to say one where someone prefers one web browser over another or one audio/video player over another and calls it a new version to share.
We have a very large litter of Puppys already.

The main thing here is that the initrd.gz and vmlinuz files would stay the same in the remasters and only the pup6.sfs file would get modified with inclusion of the added packages.
That means any configuration files that would be specific to a users PC would be left out of the remaster.

My 2 cents worth....
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1775
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 06:32    Post subject:  

Already started my own "from scratch" build. Still missing some things, like burning utilities and wireless stuff.

Got a full base already, atm it boots with my good ol' 2.6.33.4 with BFS and lots of fun performance patches, still need to compile 2.6.35.4 for it. All compiled manually with march=i486 and mtune=i686, O2 for all packages except O3 for compression and archiving stuff, plus OpenSSL.

These packages are 80% of the devx and most "core" stuff, plus my favorite console applications. The real pain is getting X to work. I'll try to compile X and things like GTK maybe ... it's the second time I attempt to do that manually.

The minimum kernel it supports is 2.6.32, glibc is compiled against the 2.6.32.21-libre1 headers. Very small ... libc-2.12.1.so is 1.7 MB compared to about 9 MB with GCC 4.4.4 and glibc 2.11.2, my previous build. That's before stripping.

I'm working on my own distro, so even if nobody needs this, I have a use for it ... I'm also building a tool that builds my distro from Ubuntu packages instead of my home-made ones Wink

Quote:
alsa_lib-1.0.23
alsa_plugins-1.0.23
alsa_utils-1.0.23
aria2-1.10.2
aspell-0.60.6
aspell_en-6.0
autoconf-2.67
automake-1.11.1
bash-4.1.007
binutils-2.20.1
bison-2.4.3
busybox-1.17.2
bzip2-1.0.5
calcurse-2.8
centerim-4.22.9
clex-4.5
coreutils-8.5
curl-7.21.1
diffutils-3.0
e2fsprogs-1.41.12
elinks-0.11.7
expat-2.0.1
file-5.04
findutils-4.4.2
flac-1.2.1
flex-2.5.35
gawk-3.1.8
gcc-4.5.1
gdbm-1.8.3
gettext-0.18.1.1
glibc-2.12.1
gmp-5.0.1
gnutls-2.8.6
grep-2.6.3
groff-1.20.1
grub-1.98
gzip-1.4
htop-0.8.3
iana_etc-2.30
inetutils-1.8
iproute2-2.6.35
kbd-1.15.2
kernel_headers-2.6.32.21-libre1
less-436
lftp-4.0.10
libgcrypt-1.4.6
libgpg_error-1.9
libid3tag-0.15.1b
libmad-0.15.1b
libogg-1.2.0
libsamplerate-0.1.7
libsigc++-2.2.8
libsndfile-1.0.21
libtasn1-2.7
libtool-2.2.10
libtorrent-0.12.6
libvorbis-1.3.1
libxml2-2.7.7
lynx-2.8.7
m4-1.4.15
make-3.82
man_db-2.5.7
man_pages-3.26
moc-2.4.4
module_init_tools-3.12
mpc-0.8.2
mpfr-3.0.0
nano-2.2.5
ncurses-5.7
openssl-1.0.0a
patch-2.6.1
perl-5.12.1
pkg_config-0.25
procps-3.2.8
psmisc-22.12
python-2.7
readline-6.1.002
rtorrent-0.8.6
screen-4.0.3
sed-4.2.1
speex-1.2rc1
squashfs_tools-4.0
tar-1.23
texinfo-4.13a
udev-162
util_linux_ng-2.18
vim-7.3.3
weechat-0.3.3
wget-1.12
xz-4.999.9beta
zlib-1.2.5


I can upload this thing ... anyone interested? It's not that big ... my previous build was about 650 MB uncompressed, but after stripping and mksquashfs'ation it was around 150 MB Razz

Maybe I'll upload an alpha image of my distro, can be useful to build a base Puppy with LFS or something, once we have the right packages we can lie to Woof these are raw T2 packages, should work.

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10730
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 08:46    Post subject:  

Iguleder wrote:
Already started my own "from scratch" build. mksquashfs'ation it was around 150 MB Razz



That's a nice start but, It should be around 110-120MB, 150MB is too large for a default pre-alpha
ttuuxxx

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Wed 08 Sep 2010, 08:57    Post subject:  

8 bit

Sounds a bit like my request for a network booting option in grub, in new puppies

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=59404

Devs, any interest?.....Puppy from scratch/Pup'n'Go + network download to self construct a Pup for your own hardware.....nice n fast/small ....add what you want by SFS using sfs linker, or similar

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=47976

If anyone can get it to run on Arm, PowerPC or PS3 and do clustering, so much the better Wink Laughing

Edit: Note Arm Kernel Kautobuild http://armlinux.simtec.co.uk/kautobuild/

http://www.denx.de/wiki/U-Boot/WebHome

http://www.embeddedarm.com/software/arm-linux-bootloader.php

http://www.linux-arm.org/LinuxBootLoader/WebHome

Anyone getting close?

Aitch Smile

Last edited by Aitch on Wed 08 Sep 2010, 09:26; edited 1 time in total
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