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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Cutting edge
Saluki, Puppy Remastered
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jemimah


Joined: 26 Aug 2009
Posts: 4309
Location: Tampa, FL

PostPosted: Sat 18 Dec 2010, 03:21    Post subject:  

technosaurus wrote:
hopefully the frame buffer kdrive works better.


If you figure out how to get both the mouse and keyboard working with Xfbdev, please tell me. Smile
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technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4284

PostPosted: Wed 29 Dec 2010, 16:06    Post subject:  

new package format based on big_bass suggestions:
(and some things I have picked up along the way)

txz (tarball compressed with xz -ze9)
pet spec file in the same format except outside the tarball with md5sum in the Nth? field
Maybe another field for the base url for unofficial packages too?

downside - another file for every package

benefits
easier updating, better compression, more standardized, 1 step archive utility compatibility

the ftp site would look like:

allpackages.info
abiword-X.X.info
abiword-X.X.txz
...

the .info files could be used for updates to the allpackages.info (for the package manager) and to generate a webpage (similar to pupweb.org) using a simple cron job

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 29 Dec 2010, 16:18    Post subject:  

So this Dog Saluki is a project that you guys inspire each other to go ahead with

I failed to find anything to download so that is too early then?

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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan 2011, 00:12    Post subject:  

Quote:
this is going way too slow


How do we develop some momentum whilst awaiting the 'perfect start'? Very Happy

1. Did you know the Wii is Arm based and with Wii 2 likely to be announced this year we have a potential cheap ARM base in second hand Wii's (just a thought)
2. Will Saluki be able to make use of Honeycomb and Ice Cream (Android 3 and 4) or will it be yesterdays dog? (Just an even crazier thought)
3. Chromium OS is Chrome + a Media player from a forked linux kernel. Barry has talked of Puppy having its own forked kernel. (the men in white coats are appearing - they may be as illusionary as Saluki). Base + Browser + Bizzy.
4. Lucid 5.2 done. Are new Dorgs ready?

http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppy6

Quote:
Step 1
Create a bootstrap development environment
Step 2
Perfect the build system
Step 3
Compile Packages

Goals
* Compile from scratch for maximum speed and performance
* Create a new build system that supports multiple platforms, with a user friendly package manager, and a well stocked repository

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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sat 08 Jan 2011, 07:41    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:
How do we develop some momentum whilst awaiting the 'perfect start'? Very Happy


Perhaps if those devs who've posted/can do possible starting bases gave a progress report as to how near/far from usable base they are?

Perhaps also, if anyone can identify the inertia in the system, i.e. what's holding us up?

Is it just impatience/anxiety/excitement/frustration, or lack of skill...?

If anyone feels like 'jumping the queue' and posting something, if only to be a target to be shot down, maybe.....?

Otherwise....we wait, progress is occurring, ......but changes always occur outside any project, so sometimes you just need to say 'go', and deal with them as updates/patches, afterwards

AFAIK, the perfect [Puppy]linux doesn't exist...there's too much different hardware, and I, for one, don't know how to build specifically for what I have [changing as we speak - my mobo USB has burnt out....but instructions are welcome, for my new one Laughing ]

Aitch Smile
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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1023
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jan 2011, 22:41    Post subject:  

This thread was only started on the 3rd of September 2010. I don't think that actual beta test builds should be expected for at least another three months.

Wary5 and Puppy 5.2 are both out, BUT are in the "just after release" bugfix stages. All Primary Resources should be devoted to assisting with them at this stage.

People have put some ideas to the "pen" in the thread, but suspect more is still in the head.

Still don't consider the time "ripe" for starting another version, but DO think it's time to start "discussing" some details about what Saluki is for, what platform levels will be supported, what overall design structure it is to have, proposed size limits, build and release structure and codes (more on that below).

A "BASEPOINT" post, or is it time for a new topic (I don't think so as were still in the discussion phase, even if near the "serious" end) by Jemimah or someone "senior" if she is not available, giving an overall view at this point, containing the many convolutions already developed and discussed from this post so far in this topic is due so thay can all be considered.

And to all, PLEASE, NO SLAGGING ANOTHERS IDEAS just because you don't agree with them, be grown up enough to give decent reasons why they won't work, not just "it won't work" or the such. Remember this is an open topic and any member of the BB should have the right to add a comment, even a brand new user of puppy.

regards
scsijon

Last edited by scsijon on Thu 13 Jan 2011, 23:26; edited 1 time in total
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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1023
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Thu 13 Jan 2011, 23:20    Post subject: release structure and codes- alpha builds ONLY  

An idea. Yeah I know I can be pushy, but you don't have to take notice!

Since I believe that there are a few interested in building bases or have already built something that may be used for or within Saluki!

And I recognize my earlier post on this topic, back on page 2 is a little complicated,

I was wondering if there was the option of alpha-ing with a code something like slki-A-00xx where
slki for Saluki of course
-A- meaning alpha test/development release
00 meaning first alpha (their further would be 01 etc)
xx is a two alpha code for each builder

meaning a number of possibles could be started and made available for "playing with by others and commenting back". Usual warning on not everything working of course, but a range of possible paths to try and think about.

I expect the number of builders would decline to eventually one or maybe three (old hardware, new hardware, laptop), with the early builders joining and working together.

When we move to beta, I would expect something like slki(-l-)000 would exist (where -l- would be a laptop build if that was the path decided).

I know I can have (almost) unlimited download bandwidth on my puppy site (in Australia) for something like this, so I can host them at the one site, if the various puppy alpha developers let me know where to download from, so all wanting to try/test can check for the latest from builders and do so without chasing sites. I would also think/expect that results to be entered in a "Saluki Alpha Build" thread, while ?this thread continues to develop as an ideas thread.

ok, that's my take on it at this point, over too you.

regards
scsijon
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noryb009

Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 538

PostPosted: Tue 08 Feb 2011, 21:14    Post subject:  

When making Saluki, we have to remember Puppy's core goals:

- support for older hardware
- tiny, about 100MB
- really fast

And also:

- look great out of the box (vibrant colours, and a good background)
- have package compatibility with at least one "major" distro

Here are my thoughts:

- have 2 different downloads for older and newer hardware

- go through each program, the kernel modules, and anything else added, and post the size. We could then see what is taking up the most space, and see if we can shrink that

- start from scratch - might use some woof scripts, but would have new wizards (with parts taken from the old ones), some program substitutions (one per needed job), and new menus (control panel?)

- on the first boot, the user is asked some personal questions, like favorite colour, what image looks best (with a few WMs), ect. that would let them quickly configure a desktop theme for them
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Lobster
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Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb 2011, 00:32    Post subject:  

This sort of 'instant SFS' approach
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=493294#493294
allows for a Puppy of any configuration and size dependent on requirements

Is a modular or module based Puppy a Saluki goal/design feature?

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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1023
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Wed 09 Feb 2011, 03:03    Post subject:  

Barry is talking about wary 5.1 and using the mix-n-match system he did with the 70 beta's

I thought more about an idea I had once before and added it there, it may also be worth considering with Saluki. Not sure how the programmers/scriptors would feel about making the necessary program/tables for it though. Is it too complicated? or just the type of "step" Saluki should have!

quote:
2/ Since your talking about 5.1. I wonder if you could do a mixnmatch type package inside the iso, with a default (minimal) build to start it (with warnings), do a modprobe as part of the install routine, the results of the modprobe giving a list of suitable kernals and user asked which one to install with one of them marked as "most suitable for your hardware combination".

regards
scsijon
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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 915

PostPosted: Sun 20 Feb 2011, 16:05    Post subject:  



'Saluki is the fastest dog in the world over long distances"

Smile Wink

I've been following this topic with much interest - and understood almost half of what has been posted..
Enough to see how great minds are at work in this thread. Some say, Puppy Devs are mere sheep, but this idea-exchange proves the opposite.

Even if there would never be a Saluki Puppy, the above discussions seem so fertile, it will almost certainly influence Puppy's future.

Thanks for sharing your ideas, jeminah, big-bass, technosaurus, and all others involved.
( back to kernel 2.6.38 now...among other great things Wink )

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Lobster
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PostPosted: Sun 20 Feb 2011, 22:44    Post subject:  

Thinking backwards if we had a browser and apps,
running from CD, USB, SD or RAM (no OS base) what would we have?
Or using any booted Puppy as a base what would a
Saluki browser + downloaded apps (not cloud apps) be capable of?
We have always thought Saluki should run on a processor . . .
maybe it should run on a browser . . . ?

What happened to this code?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofio_Operating_System

Maybe there are other radical potential prototype directions . . . such as Inferno based on Plan 9?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs

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noryb009

Joined: 20 Mar 2010
Posts: 538

PostPosted: Sun 20 Feb 2011, 23:30    Post subject:  

Lobster: You mean chrome OS + some puppy stuff? That might work, but I don't think it would be a good path for puppy to go down. It would also mean you would HAVE to hook up every computer to the internet just to do some basic word processing. People who are on dial-up don't want to wait for a few minutes just to open up a word processor.
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Lobster
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PostPosted: Mon 21 Feb 2011, 02:17    Post subject:  

It does not mean cloud computing, that is just being offered by those wishing to franchise the net.
Chromium at the moment has a component that allows its javascript apps to run offline.

Once you are browser based with HTML5 you can call a Word Processor (for example) from a central page.
So Puppy people would have a choice of Open Office, Abiword or MS Word running under Wine (for example)
It would not matter whether the Browser was running on 64 bit, Wary, or an ARM based Puppy

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Bert


Joined: 30 Jun 2006
Posts: 915

PostPosted: Fri 25 Feb 2011, 18:00    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:
Thinking backwards if we had a browser and apps,
running from CD, USB, SD or RAM (no OS base) what would we have?


A liberating experience maybe..? A machine perfectly capable of doing Nothing at all? A quantum leap into divinely energized silence? I don't know, but I like your thinking-outside-the-box. Can we feed a browser little bits of initrd and some other homeopathy, to make it realize it is the OS it was always meant to be? Personally I doubt it, but I've learned long time ago, this crustacian is not as crazy as it looks Wink


Quote:
Or using any booted Puppy as a base what would a
Saluki browser + downloaded apps (not cloud apps) be capable of?
We have always thought Saluki should run on a processor . . .
maybe it should run on a browser . . . ?


At first sight, that sounds like unneeded overhead to me. The processor has to be there anyway. Adding the browser's cpu+ram-energy consumption to the app's energy consumption, it is not at all sure this would be an improvement in efficiency.
However the beauty could lie in the ease to install apps as just addons/extensions, freeing us from the archaic and disappointment/failure-prone repo system.

It has been said often before in these forums: we need a small 'empty' base engine, capable of running whatever we need to run on-the-fly. That's probably the vision technosaurus and goingnuts have in mind for Pupngo?
When I couple this to the exciting things coolpup started doing with portable apps (beyond sfs), it is impossible not to get excited..

Thanks for your craziness Lobster Cool

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