If you figure out how to get both the mouse and keyboard working with Xfbdev, please tell me.technosaurus wrote:hopefully the frame buffer kdrive works better.
Saluki, Puppy Remastered
- technosaurus
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new package format based on big_bass suggestions:
(and some things I have picked up along the way)
txz (tarball compressed with xz -ze9)
pet spec file in the same format except outside the tarball with md5sum in the Nth? field
Maybe another field for the base url for unofficial packages too?
downside - another file for every package
benefits
easier updating, better compression, more standardized, 1 step archive utility compatibility
the ftp site would look like:
allpackages.info
abiword-X.X.info
abiword-X.X.txz
...
the .info files could be used for updates to the allpackages.info (for the package manager) and to generate a webpage (similar to pupweb.org) using a simple cron job
(and some things I have picked up along the way)
txz (tarball compressed with xz -ze9)
pet spec file in the same format except outside the tarball with md5sum in the Nth? field
Maybe another field for the base url for unofficial packages too?
downside - another file for every package
benefits
easier updating, better compression, more standardized, 1 step archive utility compatibility
the ftp site would look like:
allpackages.info
abiword-X.X.info
abiword-X.X.txz
...
the .info files could be used for updates to the allpackages.info (for the package manager) and to generate a webpage (similar to pupweb.org) using a simple cron job
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].
- Lobster
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How do we develop some momentum whilst awaiting the 'perfect start'?this is going way too slow
1. Did you know the Wii is Arm based and with Wii 2 likely to be announced this year we have a potential cheap ARM base in second hand Wii's (just a thought)
2. Will Saluki be able to make use of Honeycomb and Ice Cream (Android 3 and 4) or will it be yesterdays dog? (Just an even crazier thought)
3. Chromium OS is Chrome + a Media player from a forked linux kernel. Barry has talked of Puppy having its own forked kernel. (the men in white coats are appearing - they may be as illusionary as Saluki). Base + Browser + Bizzy.
4. Lucid 5.2 done. Are new Dorgs ready?
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Puppy6
Step 1
Create a bootstrap development environment
Step 2
Perfect the build system
Step 3
Compile Packages
Goals
* Compile from scratch for maximum speed and performance
* Create a new build system that supports multiple platforms, with a user friendly package manager, and a well stocked repository
Perhaps if those devs who've posted/can do possible starting bases gave a progress report as to how near/far from usable base they are?Lobster wrote:How do we develop some momentum whilst awaiting the 'perfect start'?
Perhaps also, if anyone can identify the inertia in the system, i.e. what's holding us up?
Is it just impatience/anxiety/excitement/frustration, or lack of skill...?
If anyone feels like 'jumping the queue' and posting something, if only to be a target to be shot down, maybe.....?
Otherwise....we wait, progress is occurring, ......but changes always occur outside any project, so sometimes you just need to say 'go', and deal with them as updates/patches, afterwards
AFAIK, the perfect [Puppy]linux doesn't exist...there's too much different hardware, and I, for one, don't know how to build specifically for what I have [changing as we speak - my mobo USB has burnt out....but instructions are welcome, for my new one ]
Aitch
This thread was only started on the 3rd of September 2010. I don't think that actual beta test builds should be expected for at least another three months.
Wary5 and Puppy 5.2 are both out, BUT are in the "just after release" bugfix stages. All Primary Resources should be devoted to assisting with them at this stage.
People have put some ideas to the "pen" in the thread, but suspect more is still in the head.
Still don't consider the time "ripe" for starting another version, but DO think it's time to start "discussing" some details about what Saluki is for, what platform levels will be supported, what overall design structure it is to have, proposed size limits, build and release structure and codes (more on that below).
A "BASEPOINT" post, or is it time for a new topic (I don't think so as were still in the discussion phase, even if near the "serious" end) by Jemimah or someone "senior" if she is not available, giving an overall view at this point, containing the many convolutions already developed and discussed from this post so far in this topic is due so thay can all be considered.
And to all, PLEASE, NO SLAGGING ANOTHERS IDEAS just because you don't agree with them, be grown up enough to give decent reasons why they won't work, not just "it won't work" or the such. Remember this is an open topic and any member of the BB should have the right to add a comment, even a brand new user of puppy.
regards
scsijon
Wary5 and Puppy 5.2 are both out, BUT are in the "just after release" bugfix stages. All Primary Resources should be devoted to assisting with them at this stage.
People have put some ideas to the "pen" in the thread, but suspect more is still in the head.
Still don't consider the time "ripe" for starting another version, but DO think it's time to start "discussing" some details about what Saluki is for, what platform levels will be supported, what overall design structure it is to have, proposed size limits, build and release structure and codes (more on that below).
A "BASEPOINT" post, or is it time for a new topic (I don't think so as were still in the discussion phase, even if near the "serious" end) by Jemimah or someone "senior" if she is not available, giving an overall view at this point, containing the many convolutions already developed and discussed from this post so far in this topic is due so thay can all be considered.
And to all, PLEASE, NO SLAGGING ANOTHERS IDEAS just because you don't agree with them, be grown up enough to give decent reasons why they won't work, not just "it won't work" or the such. Remember this is an open topic and any member of the BB should have the right to add a comment, even a brand new user of puppy.
regards
scsijon
Last edited by scsijon on Fri 14 Jan 2011, 03:26, edited 1 time in total.
release structure and codes- alpha builds ONLY
An idea. Yeah I know I can be pushy, but you don't have to take notice!
Since I believe that there are a few interested in building bases or have already built something that may be used for or within Saluki!
And I recognize my earlier post on this topic, back on page 2 is a little complicated,
I was wondering if there was the option of alpha-ing with a code something like slki-A-00xx where
slki for Saluki of course
-A- meaning alpha test/development release
00 meaning first alpha (their further would be 01 etc)
xx is a two alpha code for each builder
meaning a number of possibles could be started and made available for "playing with by others and commenting back". Usual warning on not everything working of course, but a range of possible paths to try and think about.
I expect the number of builders would decline to eventually one or maybe three (old hardware, new hardware, laptop), with the early builders joining and working together.
When we move to beta, I would expect something like slki(-l-)000 would exist (where -l- would be a laptop build if that was the path decided).
I know I can have (almost) unlimited download bandwidth on my puppy site (in Australia) for something like this, so I can host them at the one site, if the various puppy alpha developers let me know where to download from, so all wanting to try/test can check for the latest from builders and do so without chasing sites. I would also think/expect that results to be entered in a "Saluki Alpha Build" thread, while ?this thread continues to develop as an ideas thread.
ok, that's my take on it at this point, over too you.
regards
scsijon
Since I believe that there are a few interested in building bases or have already built something that may be used for or within Saluki!
And I recognize my earlier post on this topic, back on page 2 is a little complicated,
I was wondering if there was the option of alpha-ing with a code something like slki-A-00xx where
slki for Saluki of course
-A- meaning alpha test/development release
00 meaning first alpha (their further would be 01 etc)
xx is a two alpha code for each builder
meaning a number of possibles could be started and made available for "playing with by others and commenting back". Usual warning on not everything working of course, but a range of possible paths to try and think about.
I expect the number of builders would decline to eventually one or maybe three (old hardware, new hardware, laptop), with the early builders joining and working together.
When we move to beta, I would expect something like slki(-l-)000 would exist (where -l- would be a laptop build if that was the path decided).
I know I can have (almost) unlimited download bandwidth on my puppy site (in Australia) for something like this, so I can host them at the one site, if the various puppy alpha developers let me know where to download from, so all wanting to try/test can check for the latest from builders and do so without chasing sites. I would also think/expect that results to be entered in a "Saluki Alpha Build" thread, while ?this thread continues to develop as an ideas thread.
ok, that's my take on it at this point, over too you.
regards
scsijon
When making Saluki, we have to remember Puppy's core goals:
- support for older hardware
- tiny, about 100MB
- really fast
And also:
- look great out of the box (vibrant colours, and a good background)
- have package compatibility with at least one "major" distro
Here are my thoughts:
- have 2 different downloads for older and newer hardware
- go through each program, the kernel modules, and anything else added, and post the size. We could then see what is taking up the most space, and see if we can shrink that
- start from scratch - might use some woof scripts, but would have new wizards (with parts taken from the old ones), some program substitutions (one per needed job), and new menus (control panel?)
- on the first boot, the user is asked some personal questions, like favorite colour, what image looks best (with a few WMs), ect. that would let them quickly configure a desktop theme for them
- support for older hardware
- tiny, about 100MB
- really fast
And also:
- look great out of the box (vibrant colours, and a good background)
- have package compatibility with at least one "major" distro
Here are my thoughts:
- have 2 different downloads for older and newer hardware
- go through each program, the kernel modules, and anything else added, and post the size. We could then see what is taking up the most space, and see if we can shrink that
- start from scratch - might use some woof scripts, but would have new wizards (with parts taken from the old ones), some program substitutions (one per needed job), and new menus (control panel?)
- on the first boot, the user is asked some personal questions, like favorite colour, what image looks best (with a few WMs), ect. that would let them quickly configure a desktop theme for them
- Lobster
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This sort of 'instant SFS' approach
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 294#493294
allows for a Puppy of any configuration and size dependent on requirements
Is a modular or module based Puppy a Saluki goal/design feature?
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 294#493294
allows for a Puppy of any configuration and size dependent on requirements
Is a modular or module based Puppy a Saluki goal/design feature?
Last edited by Lobster on Wed 09 Feb 2011, 12:10, edited 1 time in total.
Barry is talking about wary 5.1 and using the mix-n-match system he did with the 70 beta's
I thought more about an idea I had once before and added it there, it may also be worth considering with Saluki. Not sure how the programmers/scriptors would feel about making the necessary program/tables for it though. Is it too complicated? or just the type of "step" Saluki should have!
quote:
2/ Since your talking about 5.1. I wonder if you could do a mixnmatch type package inside the iso, with a default (minimal) build to start it (with warnings), do a modprobe as part of the install routine, the results of the modprobe giving a list of suitable kernals and user asked which one to install with one of them marked as "most suitable for your hardware combination".
regards
scsijon
I thought more about an idea I had once before and added it there, it may also be worth considering with Saluki. Not sure how the programmers/scriptors would feel about making the necessary program/tables for it though. Is it too complicated? or just the type of "step" Saluki should have!
quote:
2/ Since your talking about 5.1. I wonder if you could do a mixnmatch type package inside the iso, with a default (minimal) build to start it (with warnings), do a modprobe as part of the install routine, the results of the modprobe giving a list of suitable kernals and user asked which one to install with one of them marked as "most suitable for your hardware combination".
regards
scsijon
'Saluki is the fastest dog in the world over long distances"
I've been following this topic with much interest - and understood almost half of what has been posted..
Enough to see how great minds are at work in this thread. Some say, Puppy Devs are mere sheep, but this idea-exchange proves the opposite.
Even if there would never be a Saluki Puppy, the above discussions seem so fertile, it will almost certainly influence Puppy's future.
Thanks for sharing your ideas, jeminah, big-bass, technosaurus, and all others involved.
( back to kernel 2.6.38 now...among other great things )
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- Lobster
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Thinking backwards if we had a browser and apps,
running from CD, USB, SD or RAM (no OS base) what would we have?
Or using any booted Puppy as a base what would a
Saluki browser + downloaded apps (not cloud apps) be capable of?
We have always thought Saluki should run on a processor . . .
maybe it should run on a browser . . . ?
What happened to this code?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofio_Operating_System
Maybe there are other radical potential prototype directions . . . such as Inferno based on Plan 9?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs
running from CD, USB, SD or RAM (no OS base) what would we have?
Or using any booted Puppy as a base what would a
Saluki browser + downloaded apps (not cloud apps) be capable of?
We have always thought Saluki should run on a processor . . .
maybe it should run on a browser . . . ?
What happened to this code?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cofio_Operating_System
Maybe there are other radical potential prototype directions . . . such as Inferno based on Plan 9?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs
Lobster: You mean chrome OS + some puppy stuff? That might work, but I don't think it would be a good path for puppy to go down. It would also mean you would HAVE to hook up every computer to the internet just to do some basic word processing. People who are on dial-up don't want to wait for a few minutes just to open up a word processor.
- Lobster
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It does not mean cloud computing, that is just being offered by those wishing to franchise the net.
Chromium at the moment has a component that allows its javascript apps to run offline.
Once you are browser based with HTML5 you can call a Word Processor (for example) from a central page.
So Puppy people would have a choice of Open Office, Abiword or MS Word running under Wine (for example)
It would not matter whether the Browser was running on 64 bit, Wary, or an ARM based Puppy
Chromium at the moment has a component that allows its javascript apps to run offline.
Once you are browser based with HTML5 you can call a Word Processor (for example) from a central page.
So Puppy people would have a choice of Open Office, Abiword or MS Word running under Wine (for example)
It would not matter whether the Browser was running on 64 bit, Wary, or an ARM based Puppy
A liberating experience maybe..? A machine perfectly capable of doing Nothing at all? A quantum leap into divinely energized silence? I don't know, but I like your thinking-outside-the-box. Can we feed a browser little bits of initrd and some other homeopathy, to make it realize it is the OS it was always meant to be? Personally I doubt it, but I've learned long time ago, this crustacian is not as crazy as it looksLobster wrote:Thinking backwards if we had a browser and apps,
running from CD, USB, SD or RAM (no OS base) what would we have?
At first sight, that sounds like unneeded overhead to me. The processor has to be there anyway. Adding the browser's cpu+ram-energy consumption to the app's energy consumption, it is not at all sure this would be an improvement in efficiency.Or using any booted Puppy as a base what would a
Saluki browser + downloaded apps (not cloud apps) be capable of?
We have always thought Saluki should run on a processor . . .
maybe it should run on a browser . . . ?
However the beauty could lie in the ease to install apps as just addons/extensions, freeing us from the archaic and disappointment/failure-prone repo system.
It has been said often before in these forums: we need a small 'empty' base engine, capable of running whatever we need to run on-the-fly. That's probably the vision technosaurus and goingnuts have in mind for Pupngo?
When I couple this to the exciting things coolpup started doing with portable apps (beyond sfs), it is impossible not to get excited..
Thanks for your craziness Lobster
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- Lobster
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On behalf of my imaginary crack psychiatric team,Thanks for your craziness Lobster
I thank you. They are employed to keep me on the wrong side
of sanity.
meanwhile
http://techcrunch.com/2011/02/27/burning-chrome/
Giiggle is turning Chrome into the ubiquitous connected
browser of the future.
However compliance with their advertising and marketing
ambitions is not part of my best interests.
The Cloud is coming
and maybe BBC Cloud or other public service utilities
will offer the best without the hard/soft sell.
I have run Firefox beta on Win 7
it is reminiscent of Chrome
The betas of Seamonkey are looking great
Puppy
Choice Linux
Many commentors seem to be saying Chrome/Chromium is faster than Firefox, especially streaming video, however ChromeOS is beginning to look interesting
Open Source info here
http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os
Here's as plug for Lobster's Puppy Chrome browser info
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=55915
Aitch
Open Source info here
http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os
Here's as plug for Lobster's Puppy Chrome browser info
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=55915
Aitch
- technosaurus
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Have you seen the size of the ChromeOS sources? There is a 1-man project that already beats them at their own game called xPUD (which is actually smaller than Puppy) You may have already seen my Puppy Web Desktop which is just a static portal page to other web apps.Aitch wrote:Many commentors seem to be saying Chrome/Chromium is faster than Firefox, especially streaming video, however ChromeOS is beginning to look interesting
Open Source info here
http://www.chromium.org/chromium-os
Here's as plug for Lobster's Puppy Chrome browser info
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=55915
Aitch
I am currently quietly working on a set of cgi script functions (as part of bashbox) that will allow gtkdialog style interaction within the browser using only busybox and any browser (from dillo to webkit) - this will allow most P-apps to be ported and will be usable even from a framebuffer browser and not dependent on any specific widget toolkit ... also looking at the broadway branch (html5 backend) of gtk3 for future possibilities - the first thing I would like to do is port the internet connection wizard so that the Error page redirects you to the interactive in-browser internet connection wizard (I may need some help from Jemimah with this one if I get stuck)
Check out my [url=https://github.com/technosaurus]github repositories[/url]. I may eventually get around to updating my [url=http://bashismal.blogspot.com]blogspot[/url].
I havent posted here in long time
I think that I should say why
I am going a different direction than ideas that are posted here and
in the opposite direction
I am rebuilding to have official tools I replaced almost all busybox commands with
the real coreutils binaries
and I want and need to maintain a linux compatible
system that shares the greater linux community ideas and Ethics
about sharing work and and providing sources and documentation
and standard packages
and a build system that is built on sound linux practices
the same way all other major linux distros have been successful with over the years
having it small and fast is important
but maintaining linux standards are much more important
Joe
I think that I should say why
I am going a different direction than ideas that are posted here and
in the opposite direction
I am rebuilding to have official tools I replaced almost all busybox commands with
the real coreutils binaries
and I want and need to maintain a linux compatible
system that shares the greater linux community ideas and Ethics
about sharing work and and providing sources and documentation
and standard packages
and a build system that is built on sound linux practices
the same way all other major linux distros have been successful with over the years
having it small and fast is important
but maintaining linux standards are much more important
Joe
- Lobster
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The Ice Cream I mentioned here
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 965#484591
has now been sandwiched into the next Android
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2011/05/ ... -sandwich/
Puppy 5.3 Alpha 2 should be out today based on Woof and Slackware binaries
Dpup has been revived based on Woof and Debian binaries
Lucid and retro Lucid (based on Puppy 4.3.1 compatibility)
64 bit will be available with 5.3 and is already here with Fatdog
Barry continues the development of Woof, Wary and Quirky.
Puppeee continues its netbook development along with Fluppy.
All well documented.
Jemimah mentioned this in December of 2010
Are we ready for a Base jump yet?Anyone is free to post a base at any time, but Technosaurus' "mostly static" idea is most interesting to me personally, and I think it will be really solid once he gets it ready.
If BigBass has a base system ready to go with recent enough libraries to run newish applications, lets take a look!