Puppy ARM?

[noryb009]

Instead of a ARM based puppy with specially built packages, could we find a X86 emulator for ARM and work with that? It won't be as fast, but it would be much easier and could be done quickly.

[nooby]

good suggestion but an emulator is not like a virtual thing is it because that would sandbox you so you see nothing of the arm thing at all?

But it would allow you to boot up puppy from within and then use the wifi to go out on internet and that is cool. But what else would it allow?

Sorry if I am too naive. We need to search for emulator for exactly the Arm for the device we own. I ahve two smartphones with ARM on them but they use a non rooted Android OS. So one are locked out from booting the emulator unless the SDK? could make it installed?

[noryb009]

I'm thinking a minimal QEMU/virtual box OS that gives puppy full wifi, ports, file system, etc access. I'm not sure if this can be done, though.

[nooby]

Hey maybe good news here?

Put this in google search bar

QEMU for ARM processors

I saw several intersting entries.

QEMU emulates the armv5tej instruction set and all the derivative processors families like ARM7, ARM9E, ARM10E and XScale. It emulates full systems like Integrator/CP board, Versatile baseboard, RealView Emulation baseboard, XScale-based PDAs, Palm Tungsten|E PDA, Nokia N800 and Nokia N810 internet tablets etc. Qemu also powers the Android emulator which is part of the Android SDK (most current Android implementations are ARM based)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QEMU#ARM

And others like that.

[gcmartin]

...

QEMU emulates the armv5tej instruction set and all the derivative processors families like ARM7, ...

... .

I see, I think.

• Use QEMU to create an ARM environment on i86.
• Then build/test a running ARM OS replacement to work out its bugs.
• Then backup that running ARM environment.
• Then restore that backup into a "real" ARM.

Yes, I can see how that might work. But, to build and test will require a community effort if you expect success.
Also, you must identify which ARM hardware you intend for ARM-PUP to run on.

Hope this helps

[noryb009]

No, my original idea was to port QEMU to ARM, then run QEMU on the device with puppy in the virtual machine. That way, instead of porting Puppy and all the apps to ARM, we just have to get QEMU working.

[nooby]

No, my original idea was to port QEMU to ARM, then run QEMU on the device with puppy in the virtual machine. That way, instead of porting Puppy and all the apps to ARM, we just have to get QEMU working.

I know too little but it do sounds like the best idea we have had so far.

But then one need one such Qemu for each different ARM architecture?

They are many. Sure one can look for which one are most popular among the most sold items. What is predicted to be the next best seller for 2011 2012?

I tested Vbox two days ago. Played with it for some 4 hours or so tested each iso I had. Some 15 different Linux or so.

Takes for ever to move the cursor from one end to the other on some.

Loading Firefox took so long time on some virtual Linux that I thought something failed. Nope vitual only that slow. Unusable. As I remember Qemu was also incredibly slow. They use special code to snap it up but that is code for 686 type of processors and not for ARM.

So if Qemu is similarly slow as vbox was slow then none of us have the patience to use it do we?

How does the Devs of apps for all these ARM goes about it? What do they use or make use of?

Don't get me wrong but you do know there are very many different ARM in actual use now and they are not compatible with each other.

[gcmartin]

Thanks @Nooby for shining the flashlight on the real issue. That's is why I proposed idea in post below.

Let me see it this makes sense: QEMU is a package which allows creation of a Virutal MACHINE! To date, most of us who use VMs do so by telling QEMU to create an Virtaul PC where we then boot some OS in that Virtual PC.
It seems that someone had suggested. earlier, that QEMU CAN create a ARM Virtual device (I have NOT verified this though). If so, QEMU would alllow me to use my PC to create a Virtual ARM where I can boot my ARM's OS; say ddwrt for example.

Assuming I can do this, then it is logical that I can build an ARM OS and test it within that Virtual ARM to get it so that it mimics the same operations we see in Puppy Linux.

Once this is done, tested, and ready, I can then...somehow... load this working NEW OS into a real ARM device. And, have some guarantee that it will works.

What do you think.

Reason why you would do it this way, is because ARM CPUs do NOT have the instruction-set, yet, to compete on equal footing with an Intel-AMD or PowerPC CPU. They were initially designed with a reduced instruction-set so to do routing and communications ONLY. And have since been extended to storage devices (NAS), and of late, cell phones and PADs. These are NOT the "floating point" masters on LAN......today. And, up until recently, most (all prior) ARMs have so little memory that they are useless with todays applications; much less General Business OSs.

There may be merit to your idea in this thread. But build an understanding of what you want to accomplish and what you are going to be designing for. Then move forward.

Most of all, you should have a reason. One reason might be "let's see if we can do it?"

All followers of this thread should put their own ideas forth on this.

Hope this helps

[nooby]

Your approach seems good to me but remember me know very little so I trust you grasp this much better than what I do. It soijnds very logical to me. So if that is your dream then go for it. Sounds promising indeed.

[Aitch]

Don't know if any of this will help?

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... h2cFYPtY5g

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM

http://www.debian.org/ports/arm/

http://www.ovpworld.org/download_ARM.php

As far as I know Qemu/VMWare/virtualbox/Xen can all run virtual/emulated arm

Qemu needs the accelerator KQemu, and is renowned slow without

http://wiki.qemu.org/KQemu/Doc

AFAIK Xen runs pretty much native speed, as it is fully virtualized hypervisor, whereas the others are paravirtualized

http://xen.org/

Only some virtuals allow host/virtual to communicate/read/write to common disk/networks - I believe Xen does....but I'm at the limit of my knowledge/expertise

Samsung Arm9 developer boards with 1gb nandflash are now c£60/$85 on ebay [China]

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Samsung-S3C2440-A ... 19bf137e92

runs qtopia [http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=176144]

an extra £25/$40 gets you 1028x768@70hz vga o/p module
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ... K:MEWAX:IT

It's fun isn't it?

Aitch

[nooby]

Aitch it is fun so you guys wants as many of us as possible to make a emulator that works on our intel? 686 machines but being an emulator it pretends to be ARM and it can be any ARM and one can learn how to make something that have the Puppy thinking built in to it and later when we knows how to we can make a "thing" that loads on the arm and works like Puppy in the end but on cheap Pads and cheap Android Smartphones?

I am not that bright but sure it is fun.

[Ted Dog]

I've been having fun using puppylinux to telnet into my kindle 3. for 138.00 USD its a useful ARM developing platform. It also reads books too! battery built-in. I'm currently working on getting BACON working on it. its Webbrowser does not work with this forum for posting but reading is fine.

What is great is puppylinux has all the right software built in to support the usb network used to telnet into kindle.

so FYI

[Ted Dog]

never mind posting now from within my kindle this site needs javascript I had it on. So everything here works fine.

[nooby]

Ted that is progress indeed. I have always wanted an E-Ink computer.

I have to look it up so I know what I am talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_paper
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazon_Kindle

Kindle 3 was released on August 27, 2010.[6] User reports indicate that the new display on the Kindle 3, with E Ink Pearl technology, is noticeably superior to previous generations.

The Kindle DX line features larger screens than the main Kindle line and is marketed as more suitable for displaying newspaper and textbook content.[7] Amazon has also introduced Kindle software for use on various devices and platforms, including Microsoft Windows, iOS, BlackBerry, Mac OS X (10.5 onwards), Android and Windows Phone 7.[8]

The Kindle hardware devices use an e-ink electronic paper display that features 16 shades of grey. This allows for a long battery life and easy readability. Content for the Kindle can be purchased online and downloaded wirelessly in some countries, using either standard Wi-Fi or Amazon's 3G "Whispernet" network.[9]

wow you can even write in our forum using it.

What is this Telnet thing you talk about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telnet
Telnet is a network protocol used on the Internet or local area networks to provide a bidirectional interactive text-oriented communications facility using a virtual terminal connection. User data is interspersed in-band with Telnet control information in an 8-bit byte oriented data connection over the Transmission Control Protocol (TCP).

Telnet was developed in 1969 beginning with RFC 15,extended in RFC 854, and standardized as Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) Internet Standard STD 8, one of the first Internet standards.

So you steer it from outside in the same room or from you work to your home or what?

Can you not use it as it is, do you have to use another computer to tell it what to do. Wow I know too little.

[Aitch]

More ARM news

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewto ... 041#496041

Aitch

[gcmartin]

Hi @Nooby
I think @Aitch is posting to help with understanding of ARM, news on ARM, and tools for setting up a platform to develop, build, and test using PC based technology. Once, you have built an OS for your ARM, then, you would "load" that newly developed OS into your ARM.

I don't think he was proposing that you create an emulator that will run on ARM. Remember, ARMs though powerful for their intended use, are NOT very powerful up against an Intel/AMD. So I believe he is suggesting that you use the much more powerful Intel/AMDs to develop your ARM's OS, then load it into your ARM.

Edited: 02/17/11 at 1:35PM EST
I think @Aitch and I are proposing the same thing here. Here it is:

1. When you install the VM product on your Intel/AMD OS; say Puppy, then that Puppy is called THE VIRTUAL HOST! This means that it can allow you to create little virtual worlds on this host.
2. Normally, creating a Virtual world, callled a Virtual Machine (VM) or Virtual client machine, let you start an Intel-based "virtual PC" which will boot another Operating system (lets say Windows).
3. At this point you have Puppy as the Virtual Host, and Windows is being run in a VM on the Virtual Host.
4. When the above is done, in the VM world we call the VM where Windows as running in an "emulated" area.
5. So when you say "emulated" in this context, we VM people believe you mean that the VM where Windows is running is an Intel "emulated" virtual machine. To us, emulated means a particular kind of VM.
6. Lastly, above I purposely used the word 'Normally" for this reason. Normally says Intel for a VM, BUT SOME VM Host products will let you create other "EMULATED" VMs for example, I can create an emulated ARM, or I can create an emulated SMP 64bit PC or I can create an emulated 16bit PC, or I created an emulated ...
7. Remember, I am "emulating" some hardware device virtually; and then I will run some OS on that virtual hardware device by starting it from the command line on the Puppy console (in this case).
8. Understanding this terminology helps you communicate accurately what you mean.

I recommend that you set up a VM host and then begin running some OS in one of the VMs you may start from the host's console. You will also notice that the VM Host requires you to tell him what kind of VM you want him to setup to emulate for you. He will configure whatever you tell him so that you can boot an OS into that emulation (a VM client PC). In fact you can define as many VM "worlds" that you desire making each world different from the others.

Hi @Aitch
KQemu AND Xen require Intel based processors which have the Virtual Assist Hardware built-in, so that it can achieve near native speeds. Also, Linux must be generated with KVM active so that it will allow KQemu and Xen to take advantage of the hardware assist features so that near-native speeds are reached.

As I remember, most 64bit AMDs have this hardware assist. With Intel, though, you must check the CPU number and "stepping" to insure you have a PC capable of VM near-native speed.

Hope this helps

[nooby]

gcmartin, thanks I get it better now after reading your description.

But would it not help much if one had a very common ARM with Android and then rooted that Android and get to know how that is set up and then on the big desktop also made an emulator of that version of ARM and there installed Android and there on the virtual set up one could test and test and only implement it when it worked.

My old Workmate who love computers but are less computerchallenged than what I am he installed on his Samsung windows mobile a software that could start up as Android or windows for mobile. He has a 4GB SD card in it with that software and can dual boot.

I find it likely that that Samsung use an ARM but sure I should ask him what version he has. It is a big 4" screen on it. Don't remember product model.

But it does show it is possible to change them but maybe not within the rules of the maker?

Apple on their lates iphone have set it up to punish those that "jailbreak" root.

So why would not google follow through and make Android sense that one have rooted it and shut off access to the operator?

[nooby]

I found this brave Italian Linux guy,

He is into MicroCore which is TinyCore only smaller.

TCL MicroCore on Eken M003 VIA MW8505 ARM Cortex 533MHz / 128MB / 2GB / LCD8 / Android

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mt7YN8JL0pc

He mention it on the TCL forum too but very few seems interested.

He explains how he did it but in Italian in this post

I am a very satisfied user TinyCore So the first thing I thought of having our hands a clone M003 iPad Eken, painfully slow with its original operating system (Android), and has been to mount on our beloved distro Grin

But I have not found anything already done and then I had to build it from scratch, adding files from other distributions (including Debian-abrasive).

There are some things that do not work, such as memory and swap memory in the compressed kernel version 2.6-29 must be the owner, but overall is quite usable, I tried to create some extensions, wireless and Bluetooth support, and are loaded and run regularly.

If anyone is interested I can post the procedure for compilation, we also know that to prove it is not necessary to have a physical machine, but it is possible to use the qemu emulator with support for ARM processors.


Ciao!
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 03:55:09 AM by doktorenko » «Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 03:55:09 AM by doktorenko"

from here
http://tinycorelinux.com/forum/index.ph ... 8#msg47978

He has only three posts there and all of them in the thread he initiated so he is not a regular user of TCL forum obviously.

But for us using Puppy it is good news. If he could do it then others should be able to do it too. [/url]

[Aitch]

gcmartin

I think you grasped the point of my posts, but probably are more capable than me, judging by some of your other posts

nooby

I think when you say someone here can do it too, you may be right, but they haven't ventured to try yet

As far as I know, even if a basic conversion worked, it doesn't mean all hardware users would be catered for, and a virtual arm is different to an actual device, too

There is still some missing ingredient/person for this to happen....but it seems/feels close

Aitch

[nooby]

Yes he does mention the possibility of a virtual but was that virtual on the Android?

Did he use a virtual machine to load TCL MicroCore?

Maybe he did use Qemu for Android and telling it to emulate 686 or is it 486 code and then used that to load boot the TCL?

It was incredibly slow? So maybe I did misunderstand it then? But the translation from Italian? Does that indicate that it was a virtual thing?

He did write he used Debian code so that told me it was the real thing?

Does that not mean he reuse Debian linux but restructure it the way they are used to at TCL?

Robert S did teh DSL development and DSL is based on Knoppix and that one are based on Debian so that figures.

But sure I can be wrong. that almost none cared is very typical of the Linux mentality as I get it.