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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Documentation Project
Simple English (new Puppy docu project from Iguleder)
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WindUpToy


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
Posts: 89
Location: melbourne.au Slick525DVD

PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 16:54    Post subject:  

I don't want to turn this into a forum bashing thread, but the thing, among many, that really annoys me is that altho I visit every day, the maximum number of unread posts that can be recovered is 5 pages.
I only log in every day because of this ridiculous limitation.
Log in daily or miss out. This is crazy.
Other forums that I visit on weekly or monthly basis serve up 50, 100, 150 pages.
There would probably be less work for the server if it didn't have to handle annecessary extra visits.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Wed 13 Apr 2011, 17:40    Post subject:  

Haha sorry I should have told you that I am a mind reader. not polite to keep that a secret. Nope it is supereasy. you can most likely do it your self too.

Click on quote and the software copy your text so you can comment on it and then I took out codes and tested it it became visible and the first times I tried it was still invisible even my new comments. Your stealth code made me invisible too Smile

It is an old glitch in the software. I've been at it for some 3 to four years now so such has happen often.

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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
Posts: 2062
Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr 2011, 04:54    Post subject: BASIC English  

stop ...

I will work to put right an error!

British American Scientific International Commercial English will not be poor or bad English! Prof. A. P. Rossiter (University College, Durham, 1938) did write an complete book about «THE GROWTH OF SCIENCE» as a completely normal Pelican Book (Penguin Books, yes Penguin, a long time before Linux Wink ), where nobody will see that it is only written using only the list of words of BASIC English or only after a lot great number of pages! British American Scientific International Commercial English will be correct and simple English at the same time. It is not only the effect of the work of one or few men. The University of Havard did take part!

British American Scientific International Commercial English is the only one special English with complete books as The Bibel or above The Growth of Science and really more...

British American Scientific International Commercial English has a complete dictionary of than 22.000 words or 40.000 separate senses of the usual English words giving statement of sense using only the words of BASIC English («The General BASIC English Dictionary», Evans Brother Ltd) and a separate complete dictionary giving the sens of more than 25.000 words and word-groups taken from all branches of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Medicine, Psychology, Astronomy, Geology, and Anthropology, as well as from important fields of science in industry, such as Engineering, Aeronautics, and Metallurgy. See for «The Science Dictionary in Basic English», Evans Brother Ltd.

To read and get the sens of all above works you only need to learn the 850 words of British American Scientific International Commercial English...

It also uses special terms for special use and growths to «wider English» («From BASIC to wider English», Dr. W. B. Mumford). German men did find a new name for British American Scientific International Commercial English: «Englisch ohne Ballast» (and «Weiter ohne Ballast» for wider English).

Naturally we would need a set of special words for computer sciences. I don't know if there is already one (Harvard University?)...

Please see also http://ogden.basic-english.org/

(you will find this page in German and French).

You can find a lot of online books in British American Scientific International Commercial English in this page (but not the two dictionaries Embarassed !).

For example the special word «online» is a right word in BASIC English because it is made of two words from the 850 words list («on» and «line»!)!
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr 2011, 07:27    Post subject:  

I only need to learn 850 words of British American Scientific International Commercial English...

and then same words in French and Spanish and Italian and ...

That sounds interesting then I can get active in teh TouTou forum? Smile

I do hope I master these 850 words then. I looked through a list of was it 1200 simple english and I trust I did get them. I have to take a second look then. But 1938? How much did they knew then about CLI and formatting a hard disk to Ext3?

Okay one are only supposed to translate the non-tech words. I accept that. Sounds okay.

But my experience from reading about Ubuntu Linux in Swedish is that one have no idea what the Swedish words means because my brain only know them in English so it does not help if they talk in my native tongue.

I am used to the English words and not the Swedish words.

So the writer of Basic English has to be very disciplined and refuse to translate all the special words we use in linux.

all is good and well what we need is two example texts one that already exists that is about Puppy in frugal install on a NTFS formatted HDD and how one set up the menu-lst and what the boot codes refers to.

take safe booting. Some devs suggest one make use of these codes for the kernel line.

acpi=off apm=off nosmp noapic nodma nopcmcia pfix=fsck

Take each such and explain what they do in 850 words english.

It is too easy to say that it is more easy to read but do the reader get what it intended to say with the more abstract original text?

I wait to decide on this until I get an example from IguLeder what it is he refers to.

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr 2011, 07:31    Post subject:  

forum software produced two posts sorry

I add a thing from the ogden homepage

http://ogden.basic-english.org/religion.html

They explain how practical the BASIC English is by an example and they reason about the meaning of the original text and how to express it using the short list of words they have in the 850 or 1500 wordlist.
I quote

Take for example,
"There is but one God, Allah."

This expression reduces to essentially, "God is God".

This is a logical identity, a redundancy, and is not necessary or useful. There is no reason to differentiate the one and only god of a religion group from other tribal gods. Muslims, Christians, and Jews are said to share the same God.

The expression God is God might be expressed as "God is" or "God exists" as a profession of faith, yet even this is unnecessary among believers .

Yet, this meaningless greeting can be taken as intentionally annoying, insulting, and certainly divisive towards others. It is likely that each religious authority will encourage its members to adopt an uplifting greeting rather than an antagonistic slogan. End of Quote

Nooby comment.

I think they are so logical that they fail to get what the words means.

"There is but one God, Allah."

That original expression does not mean what the Ogden writer says it does. And that is seen from my non-muslim perspective. If even I as a non-muslim get what the Muslim put into these words and teh Ogden people totally fail to get it then that means that they are likely to fail in many other such examples.

Them are too much into philosophic logic and fail to grasp what the writer really intend to say. at least they did in obvious simple example.

They make a logical translation of the text instead of an original intent reworded in simpler words but expressing the same content. They twist the meaning of the original text. That is a no no in my world. It is not fair to the writer of the original text.

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oui

Joined: 20 May 2005
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Location: near Woof (Germany) :-) Acer Laptop emachines 2 GB RAM AMD64. franco-/germanophone, +/- anglophone

PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr 2011, 09:28    Post subject:  

I am not clear about what you will say as all word used, «there«, «is», «but», «one» and «god» are all good words in BASIC!

nooby wrote:
"There is but one God, Allah."


if you will say it so, say it: it is right BASIC English!

850 English words are a very important amount of words in other tongues because other tongues make use of different words for only one English word dependent of the use! and all words being formed of words from BASIC English are also BASIC words (get back in memory the example «online» from «on» and «line»). you can not say the same only using 850 German or French or Spanish words! the University of Harvard got printed books using the same way for French, Italian, Spanish, German, Russian, and Hebrew, and Charles Duff for French, Italian, Spanish, German, Portuguese and Russian («The Basis and Essentials of ... », Thomas Nelson & Sons Ltd) but 1000 words are not enough (about 3500 words in Spanish!). it is only possible on English.

I see it as almost certain that you are not interesting to use this way for discussions and it is good so!
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 14 Apr 2011, 11:44    Post subject:  

See I totally fail to make myself clear and them seems to fail too.

You even had a third take on those words.

1. They did not accept them they wanted to change the text.
2. I explained to you that their reasoning from my point of view totally failed to get what a Muslim that believe these words to be true intend when he or she say them. The Ogdon people failed to grasp that they only looked logically at them. The original text is not about that kind of logic them thought it to be. That text is a very religious expression of faith.
They totally failed to find BASIC English words that retold what the text meant at time of writing.

3. You just accept them as BASIC English but the Ogdon people did not agree with you and it is them that decide what a BASIC translation is all about.

So I don't accept that you tell me that I am not interested. I have been very interested in issues about translation since I have first heard of Esperanto and Ido since 1955 or so. But I don't support any of these languages.

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L18L

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
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Location: Burghaslach, Germany somewhere also known as "Hosla"

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2011, 08:34    Post subject: Simple English (new Puppy docu project from Iguleder)
Subject description: remember the story of Babylon
 

Quote:
I see it as almost certain that you are not interesting to use this way for discussions and it is good so!

For me it is really not clear nether in which way nooby should not be interested in this discussion. Shocked nor what should be good so Sad

Having reviewed this thread I am trying to resume:

Iguleder used the term simple English
oui introduced ogden's BASIC English
luluc had practical examples which got answered
nooby was the one who reminded himself and others at the topic
BarryK was interested, too.
...
...
...
and so on, good discussion

But then
Quote:
if you will say it so, say it: it is right BASIC English!

Seems to me that oui has not read or if so he has not understood ogden's Needs of Basic English which clearly states that ... , let me just quote from it

Quote:
Religion . Basic English can make a valuable contribution to World harmony through recognition of expressions of commonality between the world's religions. Should religion topics be expanded as a general topic or will the proposed new Literature category suffice to incorporate the fundamental religious concepts? Is a general category of religion required with sub-categories for Reading the Bible, the Koran, et al.?
Those are questions and not part of BASIC English

and
Quote:

Computing. - is another area that is allied with science that needs attention is the whole field of computers. This topic is so pervasive and is of specific interest to some of those that read these pages, that it can easily become a general computer category with sub-categories of hardware, software development, world wide web, and more. The trick here will be to identify concepts rather than use of trade names and current jargon which will dissolve in a few years.
They are calling for contributions, it is not BASIC English.

There is much other interesting stuff on that site but I don't have the impression there isn't anything ready to use for puppy now.

And...without nooby this thread would still have been in the category unanswered posts

And now...
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Quote:
spending (or wasting) retirement
BaCon
Note, above line is my way of learning good English, simple or not, from forum member Bernie Smile
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2011, 11:32    Post subject:  

Yes that is true if it had not been for Nooby being totally obsessed with special Puppy English and him would accept BASIC english instead then all would be happy Smile

I trust that IguLeder meant simple as in making pancakes and not simple as in Ogdens or any other Voice of America 1500 words English that would find another word for harddisk or sda3 or frugal install or partition or and all these other BASIC words would totally impossible to wild guess what they stood for.

Evidence is when we used google to translate an Italian text on TinyCore to English.

But I am all for that all non computer words could be easy to understand everyday English words. Words like deprecated are a bit unusual

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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1882
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2011, 11:48    Post subject:  

I wasn't following the conversation, but there are some things I want to say.

First, I wrote many useful articles but I abandoned this project because people were not interested in participating. It's hard to maintain such a big project when you're on your own and the fact nobody cares is discouraging.

Second, when I said "simple English" I meant clean language, without any technical words and complex grammar, so people known to have poor knowledge in English, such as some Asian or African fellows, can read and understand what's written in the wiki without having to use any translator or separate content, translated by ethnic groups within the Puppy community.

It's not that hard to use the term "memory" instead of "RAM" in cases where there's only one way to express a certain point that has to include technical words that non-technical people can understand. However, words like "assembly" are too much and they already require the user (who probably doesn't know the verb "assemble", unless he's a native English speaker or just has certain degree of knowledge in English) to search for additional information that he won't understand anyway.

To sum it up: "simple", for me, means non-technical English that includes only words used on a daily basis by a large majority of English speakers. The way to measure how simple it is, is the amount of information the reader absorbs from the text without effort.

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
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Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 22 Apr 2011, 11:52    Post subject:  

Thanks Igu
I agree with the need for it but as you are aware of my English is at times totally incomprehenseable something

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