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The time now is Wed 19 Jun 2013, 07:31 All times are UTC - 4 |
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions |
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A single voice to speak for Puppy
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga |
 
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WhoDo
 Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 4441 Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia |
Not every "attempt to fix something or improve something, or even bring it to attention is labelled as whining"; certainly not by me and most of the devs I have dealt with anyway. Whining only starts when the answer is "No" and the user won't accept that answer or any reasons that may be offered. I think a PLUG would be better able to help the average user understand why the answer might be "No" sometimes, or maybe "Not now" at other times. If you admit that the devs and the average user are often speaking different languages (see AJ's link in this thread for reference), then what is required is translation in both directions, wouldn't you agree?
I can see how that might be the impression when the answer is either "No" or "Not now", but the problem often has nothing to do with ignorance of faults and blind allegiance to a party line of some description. It instead usually has to do with some technical issue that cannot be easily resolved but is just too difficult to explain in user-speak, or because the only willing devs with free time simply don't know how to do that. Many of the devs here are self-taught and still learning their craft. That's the nature of Open Source development when there is no corporate structure paying for professionals.
As I said in the original post:
What that means is that the power of the PLUG is in the numbers of users that support it, not in the devs agreeing to do what it wants. The technical restrictions and development issues don't go away because someone says "Whatever you want, I'll do it"! That's just not realistic unless the people making the requests understand fully what are the limitations and restrictions that apply in the technical sense.
These are a great place to start, shariebeth. Item 1 has been attempted a few times before using the wiki as a resource, so there should be plenty of kick-start material available. The problem has usually been getting someone willing to toil "in the back room" getting the actual docs written. Item 2 is already there waiting to be packaged. There is the T2 base in Woof upon which all non-aligned Puppies have been built since 4.0. Item 3 is already a reality. What is lacking is the mechanism to feed innovations back into the base. At the moment there are at best only 1 or 2 devs able to commit stuff to Woof for the future. That's not a bad thing but it does slow the process. There was some discussion about a CVN implementation that would allow all sorts of people to commit code to a repository for evaluation and testing. Since Pizzasgood left that seems to have withered on the vine; one of the drawbacks of volunteer devs having other lives means they sometimes have to return to the real world. We will always have a shortage; that's a given. Item 4 is presently Barry's baby because that's the reason he started Puppy all those years ago. The current implementation is Wary, which uses the same T2 packages as the main non-aligned Puppy built from Woof. The differences are in the older kernel and drivers for hardware no longer supported elsewhere like dial up modems. Item 5 would be great, and I once suggest a roster system so we could offer help 24/7 world wide; Puppy Help would never sleep!  There are enough committed users and devs in various time zones to be able to do this, but it needs some underlying structure to document faults in a knowledge base so support people don't have to go looking everywhere or reinvent the wheel. That would require a Help Desk support database and pool of users with access to search and update the information. It's not impossible in a voluntary organisation but it needs driving by someone willing to commit to oversee the process and plug the gaps when they appear.
Item 6 already exists in a defacto fashion using Barry's Blog. Any of the devs who post there can also answer there and Barry can enlighten all with his wealth of knowledge on all things Puppy. If the PLUG were to post its requests and concerns there, in a common approach rather than as each individual posting their wishes, I have absolutely no doubt Barry and the devs will listen; just understand that for reasons already suggested, sometimes the answer might be "No" or "Not now". PM's are good for explanations between the devs and PLUG, and the PLUG can put things to the average user in a way they may better understand and accept. BTW, in answer to the questions of one or two other posters, I have not just posted this and walked away, as this reply will hopefully convey (hope you don't mind me tacking it on here, shariebeth). I also don't want this to be a WhoDo project! There are those here that may not accept it under any circumstances if that were the case and that would be a shame. I have no intention of being the one to start the PLUG, manage it, or see it develop into a useful adjunct for Puppy. I am willing to help behind the scenes, if required, within the limits of my current life commitments. I offered this suggestion because I got tired of old ideas that have been tried before and failed continually resurfacing. I think this is something that can work IF the users here have the will to make it happen. The reason it can work is precisely because it doesn't require anything of the devs UNLESS they want to be involved. It's a USER group, not a DEV group. Any dev with half a brain, and the majority here certainly more than qualify on that count, will WANT to contribute what they can to the wishes of the community PLUG. When I started with 2.15CE I didn't have to beg and plead for devs to support the project, even though it was a community project pure and simple; I had devs coming and offering whatever skills they had and all I had to do to keep them happy was to honestly value their input no matter what it was and regardless of whether it appeared in the current version or was opened up for further refinement by others. Most were also happy to get help solving problems they couldn't solve themselves because it was a learning experience and part of the fun. And finally, I used the term "farewell" in its original sense; that you should fare well (enjoy success) in the PLUG endeavour IF there are enough doers willing to actually roll up their sleeves and organise things for themselves and the community. Cheers. _________________ Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't! SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com |
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shariebeth
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 271 Location: Florida |
@WhoDo: I think it is important for me to clarify in your mind, maybe in others' minds although I thought I was clear, what I mean by "work with". When I said the devs would need to be willing to work with PLUG, I in no way meant "cater to whatever they want|demand|expect|report-in-as-wanted-by-users". What I mean is, would the devs and Barry be willing to listen? To discuss with PLUG or even a single leader of PLUG (however it would shape up) reasons for "No" or whatever. I don't expect devs and Barry to like all ideas users have or be able to do them all for technical reasons. "No, it technically can't be done because of xyz" and "No, it can't be done because none of us know how to" or "No it won't be done because that just is not the plan for this version because xyz" and even "No, it can't be done because it takes too long and we really need to get this out now!" ARE all acceptable answers. What isn't acceptable is being ignored, or being told "No, go away, quit begging and whining and just be grateful for whatever gets put out here, you are just a whiney bitch." or "No, everything is fine as it is, stop rocking the boat" or "We want to have fun, we don't want to do clean up and fix the bugs, that's not fun! Go away you ungrateful USER!" See the difference? Pretty sure you can see the second group of examples has happened here as well. And yeah, alienjeff's article link hits that nail right on the head. Anyway, I would be happy to be a liason person, I would be happy to coordinate help desk stuff, I would be happy to work with organization. But: The devs and Barry should be asked at least, if they support this idea and would be willing to participate in the manner I suggested in the first group of examples. Would they even be interested? I think it is a fair question, and fair to expect an answer to that from them personally, before people put out the immense amount of effort required. I repeat. I am not looking for catering to PLUG from them, just an acknowledgment from them the group would exist and a willingness to listen, consider, and discuss and explain, (and maybe admit once in a while regular users might have a good idea too). If they think this is a bad idea, you really can't expect people to bother with it. Same with organization of documentation, puplets, packages, everything: Everyone who hosts something, from an informational site to the puplets to the packages...needs to agree to participate as well...if only "some" of the information out there is organized, Puppy is still a mess. We need input from these people as well. And lastly WhoDo, thank you for discussing. We may have different opinions, but you always take the time to try to explain...and without hurling insults. As always, it is greatly appreciated. |
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shariebeth
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 271 Location: Florida |
I'd just like to comment here I am in no way affiliated with the "other posters" here you refer to, in thought or action, here or in any other thread. Meh. 
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puppyluvr
 Joined: 06 Jan 2008 Posts: 3053 Location: Chickasha Oklahoma |
 Hello,
Ironic choice of name... 
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_105376249522117 I just created it for friends to post screenshots etc... _________________ "Close the "Windows", and open your eyes, to a whole new world" http://puppylinuxstuff.meownplanet.net/puppyluvr/ http://theplpd.webs.com/ 
Nothing but Puppy since 2.15CE... |
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WhoDo
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 4441 Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia |
Ok, in that context and with that objective I understand and agree with you. The best way to achieve that is to post a PM to Barry explaining your intentions and asking if they can be posted in his Development Blog for comment. Use my forum handle in the subject line or content and link to this thread if you think that would help you to get his attention. If he agrees then you already have a BIG head start. Approached in the appropriate spirit I don't see why he wouldn't support the idea. Many of the devs don't actually frequent the forums. Some do, but often only visit selected areas or threads of interest. The occasional dev might browse the suggestions threads for ideas but seldom answer any questions. Their time is mostly preserved for the coding geekiness they enjoy. Devs are rarely "social" animals IME. Only the Project Coordinator and occasionally the lead developer will venture into the forums on a regular basis, looking for bug reports, suggestions and opportunities for improvements. Barry's Blog is the only place I know of where they all pay attention at some time or other, although there's still no guarantees. I'm sure most of them would react positively to a PLUG that would essentially represent a Beta testing pool with suggestions for improvement.
Until you have a PLUG, there is no coherent place for that input. Most of those groups would heartily support a single stream of input vs lots of different often conflicting ideas about things, AFAICT. It was in the spirit of providing such organisation and connections that I paid for puppylinux.org for almost a year. Unfortunately the comments there became abusive and the moderator was forced to close that feature as counterproductive.
Thank you, too, shariebeth. I have always been willing to discuss, despite what some others may believe. _________________ Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't! SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com |
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shariebeth
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 271 Location: Florida |
Done.
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gcmartin
Joined: 14 Oct 2005 Posts: 2690 Location: Earth |
In observing over the past few days the comments made here, I find some very useful observations coming from the community. There is a possibility that if you want to build a community of PLUGs around the Puppy products, it might stand a greater opportunity for success IFF it is developed from the top down, with an anniversary review process of how well the PLUG is operating within its "defined structure". This approach would have merit in that a review would determine how well the PLUG is doing in comparison to others, and would allow successful PLUGs to provide frameworks for success to those that will be struggling. This is how all business school models work! We should approach this with an understanding that "central" Puppy is the factory, and PLUGs are the discussion groups and voices to the factory. This means someone(s) providing a beginning framework that is in agreement with the factory. Thus we are talking about potentially doing something that is akin to a franchising where every PLUGs strucutre and operation would be extremely similar for operational measurements. I can see (from 10,000') how this would work, but, we do NOT have an internet model for the success of someting like this. So, it should be thought thru, planned, discussed in a core group, have reviewers comment for agreement of a "franchise", and several agreed to, beginning PLUGs to observe participation. (this is how Pepsi, MacDonalds, etc achieved suceess; we should be thinking about "success") Remember, we must be specific, on its mission and its expected contribution, for the whole community. P.S. Don't rule out ANY resource that could make this successful; including Google or any tool(s). Its not about the tools we use, its about the success we achieve for our community! Hope it helps _________________ Get ACTIVE; Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit the people's needs! We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this! Google's Puppy Search Engine |
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Bruce B
 Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 10823 Location: The Peoples Republic of California |
I wrote Barry one time and one time only about a bug. I think there is bug in file abc at line 123 He responded within several hours and it is fixed for any future releases. ~ _________________ New! Puppy Linux Links Page |
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Bruce B
Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 10823 Location: The Peoples Republic of California |
WhoDo, For a variety of reasons, I don't make private requests of the developers. I could explain why, but for the sake of this post, I won't. The one time I did which is cited above, I did it in the context of helping. About the idea of a "single voice" the only way I could see it being of benefit is if the developers only listened to that single voice. It would be the developers call to shut down other avenues of communications. In your previous experience for an example, you could have posted or communicated, please forward requests to Sharie, she is acting as my liaison. And enforce your stand of course. After a period of time, people learn that the only way to get through to you is by your liaison. Other than a system like that, I don't see how it would work. I don't participate on Barry's blog or pay much attention to it. The little I have looked at it, it seems he enjoys communicating with others on his blog. If a developer likes to communicate with others about his project, that is of course his prerogative. But it negates the idea of a single voice, which I hope you mean a liaison for most all voices. Summarizing, I guess I want to say, it's all up to the individual developers or project managers how they want to receive communications. Thoughts? Bruce ~ _________________ New! Puppy Linux Links Page |
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shariebeth
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 271 Location: Florida |
Hi, Here's an update of my involvement to date: I have had responses directly and indirectly from Barry and several devs that this would be something they think could be of benefit. All of course have various and different concerns and hopes for it as well. Given that, I have submitted a request to JohnMurga and active Admins requesting a forum subsection be created to this end. This was a day short of a week ago. To my knowledge, they have not come to a decision yet, as I have heard nothing either way. (As we all know, simply creating a "thread" will just result in a 200+ page mess that nobody really wants to weed through and that will be no different than what we have now.) The idea behind this is that the section would be open, transparent, and organized yet strictly controlled to prevent the derailment, duplication, and noise that plagues most all of the large threads. That said, we could set up outside of forums but given that now there would be confusion and questionable legitimacy, setting up under the "official" umbrella of Murga is desirable under the circumstances. In addition, many more people would be aware of PLUG if we were to start up in these forums and could easily see the progress and how they could contribute. Hopefully this can be moving along soon! |
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Jasper
 Joined: 25 Apr 2010 Posts: 889 Location: England |
Hi shariebeth, I suspect that from your viewpoint (as and if the single voice) that a single thread would actually be best. You could use ThreadGet to download/update, and then easily edit and manipulate any number of pages which would surely be simpler (for you) than keeping abreast of multiple threads. Perhaps, hopefully, a few good things will emerge and there may be some high quality interest, but I expect the quantity (and general quality) of interest will be so low (and conflicting and possibly so imprecise) as to render the project meaningless. My regards |
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WhoDo
Joined: 11 Jul 2006 Posts: 4441 Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia |
In my mind, this isn't about shutting down other lines of communication, Bruce. Good ideas come from all sorts of places and most devs are willing accept good ideas regardless of the source. I know I was. The problem is more at the user end of the spectrum. So many users offer requests, ideas, suggestions, wishes, etc. that often the individual ones get missed, overlooked, or even ignored. The devs usually have neither the time nor the inclination to spend hours on the forum looking for ideas or explaining to individual users why this idea or that suggestion simply won't work in the context of Puppy. My hope that the PLUG will plug that gap (ahem). 
The carrot for the developers is that the PLUG will organise multiple requests for a particular feature and quantify its importance to the user base. Whether the devs DO anything about that is, of course, up to them. If they can't then they will only have to explain why, or why not, in the one place for all to see. It will be up to those in the PLUG with enough dev speak to be able to translate to those without in their own user speak as part of the PLUG's function; again voluntary.
Once Barry's Blog becomes known to some of the squeekier wheels, it will lose its attraction. Either Barry and the devs will ignore requests there too OR the squeeky wheels will head back to the forums to bemoan the ignorance of the devs. The PLUG is designed to prevent such scenario by giving the devs a place to refer requests and the users a place to put their ideas to those who speak their language. The PLUG should agree on a "single voice" to represent all of their wishes and requests, in a reasonable fashion, to the dev section of the Puppy community. The devs will still choose whether or not to listen and/or respond BUT that single voice carries much more weight because it represents a whole community's ideas with the crackpot fraction filtered out. Some of the current non-dev community have already established respected lines of communication; people like gcmartin for example. There is no reason why they couldn't also represent the views of the wider community through the PLUG. I would also expect the various NES forums (French, Spanish, etc) to feed into the PLUG as well. It would be great if the PLUG could establish links with the Vietnamese community through Hakao and the Japanese community through shinobar or someone similar as well. It is certainly possible. All it takes is people willing to DO something rather than talk about it. I applaud shariebeth for being willing to drive the effort. That is Puppytude, as Lobster would say. _________________ Actions speak louder than words ... and they usually work when words don't! SIP:whodo@proxy01.sipphone.com; whodo@realsip.com |
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shariebeth
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 271 Location: Florida |
Update: Still no response from Admin team. |
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Flash
Official Dog Handler  Joined: 04 May 2005 Posts: 9908 Location: Arizona USA |
It's not up to the Admin team to decide whether there should be a single voice to speak for Puppy, or who that voice should be. As far as I'm concerned, my job is to make this forum as useful as possible for users of Puppy Linux. Anything else is above my pay grade.
Has anyone noticed the Usergroups section of the forum? _________________ Puppy Help 101 - an interactive tutorial for Lupu 5.25 |
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shariebeth
Joined: 26 Jan 2010 Posts: 271 Location: Florida |
All I asked from the Admin team is for a forum section with some moderators and possibly an admin to organize it and rearrange it satisfactorily as needed. The idea is to have a public place to post and be seen, but at the same time able to control the mess, arrange threads and posts, and keep it organized and griefer-free in one set spot that is easy to find for both users and devs. I even provided a template of sorts. There is nothing on your head with this. Worst case scenario, if it doesn't work out, you lose nothing except one forum section. No time on your head, no responsibility on your head. And how is this not an attempt to be useful for users and devs? Seems it fits THAT requirement to a T. To quote one of our esteemed members, there's no need to complicate toast. |
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