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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1704
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 07:01    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
Sylvander that is a very good thing you have done there and to me that works better than the more formal structured way that the PLUG enthusiasts seems to propose.


How can you say one thing works better than another thing that is proposed?

Quote:
The road to Linux Hell is paved by Good Intended Formal Structure


And the authoratative source for that universal wisdom is located where?
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 07:13    Post subject:  

nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008 2011 - 2008 = I am not good at math. is that 4 or three years.

So tlchost my answer is that three or four years of daily accumulated personal experiences of this and many other forums tells me that as soon as somebody try to force structure on this forum then all Linux Hell break lose and it takes months for everybody to lick the wounds and to get back into the free flow of exchange again.

But sure I am just one voice and one perspective but if you read through this thread you see many others having same experience.

That does not mean that total anarchy always give better result but it does allow individuals to freely take contact and them in their exchanges with each other can informally or formally set up structure that works for them.

Lucid Puppy came that way if I get it at all. I don't remember them ever asking for total control of a sub section and it worked well for them despite all the noise from nooby.

When pemasu found my noise to get in his way in his threads then he just told me so and I managed to stay away from his thread for a whole month so one don't need total control at all. A bit friendly straight talk can do wonder.

Another friendly person told me in PM that I need to shape up and I have done my best to live up to that. I relapse now and then but a friendly reminder and I behave better. So humor and a smile can do it better than formal hunting down and kicking the ass of the bad guy is my experience. sorry poor grammar there

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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1704
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 08:13    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:

So tlchost my answer is that three or four years of daily accumulated personal experiences of this and many other forums tells me that as soon as somebody try to force structure on this forum then all Linux Hell break lose and it takes months for everybody to lick the wounds and to get back into the free flow of exchange again.


I guess I will have to bow to your experience and ignore my own in all manner of forums where structure is beneficial. I simply did not realize that Puppy is so different.

Quote:

Lucid Puppy came that way if I get it at all. I don't remember them ever asking for total control of a sub section and it worked well for them despite all the noice from nooby.


The reason for asking that the PLUG folks control their own area was to insure that moderation would be fair and promote the exchange of information. It was novel concept, and one that was nothing like the current moderation in this forum, where we have seen the removal of moderator stautus for cause, editing of users posts, deletion of posts and locking of topics.

Since you seem to have real issues with control, would it be safe to say that you approve of the dictatorial tactics mentioined above? I would be very interested to see your explantion of how draconian moderation benefits the community and why it is so much better than what was proposed for the PLUG.

Thom
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shariebeth

Joined: 26 Jan 2010
Posts: 271
Location: Florida

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 08:18    Post subject:  

nooby wrote:
I am not good at expressing this but some kind of opt in instead of forcing us to opt out?
This was covered already in at least 4 different people's posts just in this thread.

nooby wrote:
As I get it John Murga the owner of the forum has appointed ttuuxxx to be the Moderator.

So has he accepted that then? Then it is already set.

So we don't need any other Mods and if ttuuxxx has to take a break can not Beem or Flash jump in to help out if the noise ratio get unbearable.

I got the impression that was to cover things temporarily until JohnMurga has time to deal with this. (He's posted already saying he's in the middle of moving and he's contacted me privately as well to apologize for the delay).

If I read what JM said correctly, he agrees this current situation is not working and he will be back when he can to devote some time to it because he agrees that this is a beneficial concept.

Also nooby, it also has been covered that Flash is too busy and doesn't want to have part in this, ttuuxxx is too busy and is hardly ever around (might want to read his most recent posts to see why and why that isn't likely to change any time soon), Béèm is more than welcome to participate if he's interested in any capacity, and the rest are missing in action.

This section will need very active "monitoring" too keep it clean, noise free and organized for easy and fast access for both developers and users. And that absolutely requires more activity than ttuuxxx can currently provide.

Nooby, as to your proposals, you are misunderstanding something: Our goal is not to demand anything of the developers. We will never say "You HAVE to include this or you have to look at that." We organize requests and ideas and "solutions" and present them in a way that they can take note of it if they choose and consider it or not as they choose, along with any pertinent information about it.

@8-bit: I like your puplet spreadsheet idea.
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Stripe

Joined: 23 Jun 2010
Posts: 658
Location: In a field. England

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 08:33    Post subject:  

@nooby
thanks for the input, all ideas/solutions are welcome as you could come up with something that everybody has missed.

cheers
stripe
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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1704
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 08:39    Post subject:
Subject description: database of Puppy derivatives
 

8-bit wrote:
My two cents is maybe do a spreadsheet of puppy derivatives with features of each as a calc file that could be downloaded and viewed with calc.


I had tried a similar approach with an online database. But...who enters and maintains the information? My concept was that the dev(of a puplet, pet or sfs) would enter and maintain the information.

Some folks used it.....hardly and of the devs listed their works, so the project came to a screeching halt. Perhaps it was too much to ask the Devs to enter information and maintain it?

Here is a link to the database....the structure and number of fields could be modified if there is a perceived need for the database.

http://puppylinux.us/cgi-bin/dbman/db.cgi

Thom
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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 08:51    Post subject:  

Stripe wrote:
WhoDo with you being a coordinator can i pick your brains?

do you have any ideas on the structure it would take so that it would be more useful/different from the suggestions section? and do you have any ideas on how the ideas would be slimmed down without reflecting anybodys personal preferences?

Sure. I think the PLUG needs to come up with some workable categories of requests; base system changes, usability, look-and-feel, whatever ...

The job of the PLUG is to take all of those user ideas and requests and find an appropriate category for them. Within each category it should be possible to deal with specific ideas or groups of ideas. For example, under "usability" you might want to look at things like printer support, graphics drivers, network drivers, etc. and have a single thread for each. People whose printer, graphics or network adapter don't work can add their requests there and the PLUG advise if there is already a known solution. Otherwise it joins a ToDo list of things the devs might consider need fixing.

That's just a very broad thumbnail sketch of what the PLUG might come up with. I don't want anyone to think that this is necessarily either the best or the only way to do it. The important thing is to get ideas and requests organised into areas that devs with specific interests can go through without having to read every forum post that even remotely looks interesting to them.

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WhoDo


Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 4441
Location: Lake Macquarie NSW Australia

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 08:58    Post subject:
Subject description: database of Puppy derivatives
 

tlchost wrote:
Some folks used it.....hardly and of the devs listed their works, so the project came to a screeching halt. Perhaps it was too much to ask the Devs to enter information and maintain it?

Here is a link to the database....the structure and number of fields could be modified if there is a perceived need for the database.

That looks great, Thom. Perhaps it can be turned to the PLUG's purpose of organising ideas and requests. The devs wouldn't need to enter anything. The PLUG organisers, or even identified PLUG members, would do that. It could even become the defacto Help system shariebeth was talking about, with ordinary users searching it as "guest" for existing solutions.

I see two valuable uses for this excellent tool:

1. PLUG organisers use it to quantify requests for specific features, support or fixes.

2. PLUG users search it to see if there is already a solution to their problem.

Good one! Cool

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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1704
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 09:31    Post subject:
Subject description: database of Puppy derivatives
 

WhoDo wrote:


I see two valuable uses for this excellent tool:

1. PLUG organisers use it to quantify requests for specific features, support or fixes.

2. PLUG users search it to see if there is already a solution to their problem.

Good one! Cool


Thanks.....

I'll be happy to modify it to take care of PLUG needs. It's a very simple database....but we need to arrive at a structure that will do the job. Everytime I roll one of these out...I realize after the fact that I should of added some fields, described things differently, etc.

I can't access the structure now...but later on I will post it here, and ask for input. From experience, it's better to spend time upfront with the design, rather than doing the "Opps, now to I preserve what I have and re-arrange the fields, add some, etc.

Hope that the end result will be the PLUG database, not Thom's database about the plug.

Thom
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 11:11    Post subject:  

Aitch wrote:
mmm

nooby wrote:
But I wonder what good use can PLUG be if it is run by the most ultra sensitive forum members who even want total control over that subforum of the main forum???


my reply
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69618

Discuss sensitivity vis-a-vis total control, and compare to self-defence

Aitch Smile


Hopefully, since John M's support for the Plug concept we can move on

For a bit of motivation insight

http://youtu.be/u6XAPnuFjJc


WhoDo, I sent you a PM but you haven't responded....

Re: the database idea, it returns....[come back PG, we miss you Wink ] Very Happy

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=303617#303617

I am in process of requesting a link/access to the forum database from John M for hardware/software problems/solutions search capability, as well as other PLUG related stuff, as I have an option for serverspace, which I hope can also serve as a Puppy mirror

see http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=69646

So, maybe we could/would have 2 separate databases, 1 for the user/dev interface, the other for hardware/software problems/solutions, and reviews/comparisons posted in the forum [and possibly elsewhere, if googlesearch or another webcrawler can be incorporated, without causing slowdowns/loadburdens]

Big thanks to John M for support for the PLUG concept, we eagerly await further comment, input, and cooperation Very Happy Very Happy
[email in draught]

Aitch Smile
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tlchost

Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Posts: 1704
Location: Baltimore, Maryland USA

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 13:04    Post subject:  

Aitch wrote:


So, maybe we could/would have 2 separate databases, 1 for the user/dev interface, the other for hardware/software problems/solutions, and reviews/comparisons posted in the forum [and possibly elsewhere, if googlesearch or another webcrawler can be incorporated, without causing slowdowns/loadburdens]



We could have numerous databases for numerous purposes. I would prefer stand-alone databases, since they can have unique designs and data fields.
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 13:48    Post subject:  

Thom, if you can customise your database as WhoDo suggested, so it can be used as a user/dev interface, with user variable keys/tags to enable various search terms, that would be great, unless you can only have certain templates, maybe?

Aitch Smile
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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1580
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 16:07    Post subject:  

Hi All,

I strongly suggest using Thom and his resources for PLUG's future growth.

I brought him into the pup.ca project at one time as a trusted contributor.

@Murga,

There is a resource that is untapped within Thom's knowledge.

Best,
Eric

EDIT: I see Murga has consented...so all my best to the PLUG

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 17:02    Post subject:  

I've been a puppy user since 2008. I am very active in puppy forum.

I love puppy linux very much. I don't want to be a burden to the puppy community.

I want the best for Puppy. I can only follow my honest conscience take on what goes on in the forum. I do my best to grasp what is going on.

I post when I find it relevant for to protect Puppy.

If I repeat a message then that is due to the responses show that my message has failed to be read as I intended at writing. To clarify.

Now without breaking any written or implied rule of the forum

I've received a PM that refer to my behavior in the forum.

I am not strong enough mentally in my self worth to confront that person in a PM so this message here is the only way I will deal with it.

I can assert that I do my best to live up to everybody's expectation of how I should fit in and I ask all of you to also follow that way of relating.

Puppy should be what we care about and we should not hijack Puppy for personal agendas.

That is my way to answer. I will not answer that PM.

I go to bed now late at night here locally

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Caneri

Joined: 04 Sep 2007
Posts: 1580
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Thu 07 Jul 2011, 17:17    Post subject:  

@nooby,
PM me.
I will speak for you when you can't.
It may be against you or for you..we will see.

Eric

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