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Pussy: potentially a Puppy with a perfect package manager
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2012, 13:35    Post_subject: Re: PCLinuxOS
Sub_title: USe asa a base
 

veronicathecow wrote:
Hi sickgut , ever thought of PCLinuxOS as a base?
Of all OS's I find that works best out of the box.
Cheers. Tony



its kind of like what they used to say about redhat vs slackware "learn redhat and you are learning about redhat, learn slackware and you are learning linux"....

in the same way of thinking i dont want to get very far away from the "source". Manipulating the OS that PCLinuxOS is based on (debian) gives us more control over the low level technical aspects. Learning debian lets us learn about all debian based OSes, but leaning PCLinuxOS just means you are learning a 2nd hand OS and its more restricting.

Having said the above, i do have great respect for PClinuxOS as an OS to use normally, but as far as creating an OS from it... i would prefer to make the OS from something closer to the "source" ie debian or ubuntu.

I used PCLinuxOS in 2008 and was completely impressed by it as a desktop OS, that had a large software selection in its repo and also an active community. PCLinuxOS in my experience was a much more complete desktop OS when compared to ubuntu or debian at the time. So please dont think i dont like PCLinuxOS.

i know that ubuntu started out as an OS based on debian, but now its so far detached that it has become a 1st tier OS just like debian is. But ubuntu really does suck when compared to debians reliability and testing and its much more inefficient and its been the linux OS ive hated the most because i dont agree with what it stands for (a half assed attempt to make linux be like windows), but its hard not to be seduced by the way it handles its live system, its much better than debian live, and at the bare base level... all of the "linux made to be a windows or mac ripoff" is missing.

Debian is made by alot of overly technical people and their default iso's offer a broken and very bad desktop experience, but the technical stuff is so well documented and reliable that its the obvious choice for my Pussy technically orientated OS.
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veronicathecow


Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 533

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2012, 14:09    Post_subject: PCLinuxOS
Sub_title: Thanks
 

Hi Sickgut, thanks for reply, I take your points but I am just greedy. The just works and large repos of PClinuxOS, the speed and the frugal instals of Puppy running from ram, oh and world peace Cool
Keep up the great work and keep well.
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2560
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 19 Jul 2012, 14:19    Post_subject: Re: PCLinuxOS
Sub_title: USe asa a base
 

sickgut wrote:
But ubuntu really does suck when compared to debians reliability and testing and its much more inefficient...[but]... its much better than debian live,
...Debian is made by alot of overly technical people and their default iso's offer a broken and very bad desktop experience, but the technical stuff is so well documented and reliable that its the obvious choice for my Pussy technically orientated OS.
Interesting summation. (its useful info for a non-dev like me..). At first I didn't like Pussy because it was so different to my puppy experience - but I keep coming back to try and make progress with it. (I realy like saintless' most recent version). I do like the idea of a "techie" based linux for certain uses (ie: not eye candy for the family, yet still useable enough for my limited commandline skills).
In particular I am looking forward to your server version of the raspberry. I have a few potential uses for it, where a full laptop or PC sitting on the bench would just be an annoying millstone I think a small raspberry running on your version of Debian might fill the ticket nicely.
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Sun 22 Jul 2012, 15:34    Post_subject:  

re: 64 and 32 bit compatibility

Apparently its not as hard to have 32 bit compatibility in a 64 bit OS as I once thought. Its only a matter of installing extra 32 bit libs. Depending on the size and any overhead the installation of these libs causes, i may or may not included 32 bit backwards compatibility in the 64 bit up and coming pussy OS.

There are plenty of 32 bit executables that i have that i would like to have the freedom to run on the 64 bit OS. Infact, i have been using 32 bit OSes on my 64 bit hardware for years because i have some favorite 32 bit programs that i would rather not live without. Yes there is probably some way to hunt down the source code and recompile them but this is not something i have learned to do correctly and the source code for some of these doesnt seem to be able to be found on the internet anymore. A 64 bit OS that has 32 bit backwards compatibility is the best of both worlds. I have been slow to adopt 64 bit development and even use 64 bit OSes because of the lack of 32 bit compatibility.

Windows 64 bit has had the ability to run 32 bit apps on the fly with no issues since its release. I understand that this may be a little harder to setup in linux but i will work towards having this as standard in all 64 bit pussies.
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3417
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Mon 23 Jul 2012, 05:52    Post_subject:  

sickgut :

Did you see this post from Iguleder .

Last post.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=79001&start=225

"For those of you who have trouble running some 32-bit stuff
(especially Skype), here's a neat trick I discovered today. "

Chris.
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Mon 30 Jul 2012, 03:21    Post_subject:  

mwuahahahahaha!!!

rasp pi arrived today, will need to buy or rig a power supply and also a hdmi monitor as i only have dsub vga connector monitors here.. Sad

i may use a usb 2.0 video capture device connected to my laptop and plug the rasp's tv out connector into the video capture device, so i would be using the laptops screen as the display for the rasp.

i wonder if i can break the universe by connecting the usb 2.0 video capture device to the usb port of the rasp, and configuring it and then plug the tv out of the rasp into the video capture device?

but in a few days or a week max ill have monitor and power supply and there will be no excuses left, ill have to start working on pussy pie Smile
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Wed 01 Aug 2012, 21:00    Post_subject:  

Starting work on the new breed of pussy today. First of all will be the Rasp version and i am using the TV out function (hdmi to vga convertor hasnt arrived yet) and a usb hub that supplies 700ma to power it. I have ordered another powered usb hub, i plan to run all the external connected stuff like mouse/ keyboard off the second powered hub when it arrives. I should have ordered the power adapter at the same time i ordered the rasp so i didnt have to frig around with the power stuff so much.

time to get off my ass and actually do something, its been a 7 months since i last did anything like this.

[Edit:] its actually a 1000ma or 1 Amp 5 volt usb hub, also the keyboard/ mouse etc will be running from another 1 Amp 5 volt hub as i have 2 identical ones here, and i ordered another from ebay just now because i thought i only had 700ma usb hubs... dunno why i remember them being 700ma, i rummaged though so many power adaptors that i must have confused myself.]

[Edit 2:] um.... does the rasp boot with no sd card in it, like show a display of any kind? the tv im using wont pick it up on the AV channel.... in the mean time im zeroing out a 8gb class 4 SD card and then ill image the default rasp pi debian and start from there... over the last 7 months of not messing with usb/ sd cards ive gone and lost all my class 6 sd cards... i think i left them all next door and im not welcome there anymore since i helped their abused daughter find another home Sad

[Edit 3:] yeah rasp doesnt display anything with no sd card in there, atleast i know i didnt break it yet... the thought occurs that this is becoming a dev blog.

[Edit 4:] rasp is up and running, initially in black and white... had a little wtf moment then after a few mins i realized that it needed an NTSC display mode and not a PAL (PAL is default in AUS) then after changing to NTSC it was in colour. I tried using my favourite old ps/2 keyboard and mouse connected to a 2x ps/2 to usb adaptor and it doesnt work Sad
ill have to use that silly roll up usb keyboard i have around here somewhere. Using a small CRT TV reminds me of using a C64.... well.. it would if the Rasp wasnt a zillion times slower Sad

[Edit 5:] i dont know why they are advertising the rasp as $25 or $35 PC, mine cost me $56 AUD... and the AUD is worth more than the USD at the moment. And thats not including the price for the power supply etc.

[Edit 6:] i think the power supply stats of my usb hubs are lying, i think they are closer to 500ma than 1 Amp, as i couldnt get any keyboard at all to work, then i plugged in the second hub and then plugged my ps/2 to usb convertor and my ps/2 keyboard and mouse into it and it worked fine. I did notice some strange behaviour tho, the rasp will try to boot from the power recieved from its actual usb ports and will fail (i dont mean its normal micro usb socket power port). So people using powered hubs may get a little confused as to what is happening. This behaviour seems to suggest that the pi will grab power from its usb ports if power is supplied to them, as well as from its micro usb socket power port. This leads me to conclude that the power socket and the usb ports are all connected on the same rails internally, and this kind of explains why the power port is actually a micro usb port instead of the usual kind of round dc jacks that are usually used.... i may be wrong here... maybe ill try running a solid power source to its actual usb ports then plug a device into its supposed power port and see if it works. But anyway... no probs now im running my mouse and keyboard from a powered hub instead of directly from the rasp.
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug 2012, 03:41    Post_subject:  

I felt for waring you about this USB thing
but knowing how bad I am at explaining
and me almost know nothing but AFAIK
one need to be careful to not connect
two power supply together and that can
happen of one have two power supplies.

Two hubs with power supply or one computer
and one hub and both have power supply.

Then the rails get power from two sources
and that create an endless loop of regulation
and they can destroy each other?????????

Hopefully I am wrong but do google it. Smile

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jbv

Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug 2012, 06:30    Post_subject:  

nooby wrote:
Two hubs with power supply or one computer
and one hub and both have power supply.

Then the rails get power from two sources
and that create an endless loop of regulation
and they can destroy each other?????????

Hopefully I am wrong but do google it. Smile


You are wrong. It won't be a problem.
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linuxbear

Joined: 18 Apr 2009
Posts: 621
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug 2012, 14:42    Post_subject:  

jbv wrote:
nooby wrote:
Two hubs with power supply or one computer
and one hub and both have power supply.

Then the rails get power from two sources
and that create an endless loop of regulation
and they can destroy each other?????????

Hopefully I am wrong but do google it. Smile


You are wrong. It won't be a problem.


I suppose this would depend on the amount of regulation, but if they are both full wave power supplies, I can see no possible issues
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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug 2012, 15:32    Post_subject:  

Why do they warn then and why have them built it so
it should never happen by accident?
And there ahve been reports of accidents?

But I am too lazy to find them now.

I would be happy to be wrong though.

This post by Raffy refrring to Barry
show that I did misunderstand but
remembered correctly that one should
be cautious. I only did not get the gist of it
but they are right to warn.

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=644102#644102

Quote:

Barry's only precaution about it was
Quote:
Do not ever have the hub powered-on and the mains adaptor turned off! You will trip the polyfuse.
See http://bkhome.org/arm/rp-hardware-setup.htm

Although I've done that already, and what you experienced was the same as mine - the Raspi tried to power up but it fails.

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jbv

Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 176

PostPosted: Thu 02 Aug 2012, 19:30    Post_subject:  

Meh. No offense guys, but there's so many things wrong with the words used here and in the pages linked to, it is obvious to me that even with my 35 years experience as a professional Electronics Engineer, I know nothing.
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2012, 10:21    Post_subject: Rasp Pi FTW a little bit  

Hi People

more than 24 hours with the rasp being up ad running, no real surprizes except for the terrible performance, and i mean TERRIBLE, this can never be a desktop system, this is only a toy or to be used in an embedded system or server where low power usage is required, i havent installed open arena (a quake 3 rip off that should perform the same as the quake demo shown on youtube running on the rasp). Depending on how Open Arena (apt-get install openarena) runs, there is potential to be a cheap games machine, i really hope it works well because i have a very low opinion of the rasp right now.

bang for your buck? This thing cost me .$56 for the board, $28 for the 2 powered hubs and the lack of normal VGA socket required me to spend $26 on a HDMI convertor (in the mean time im using a TV at 640x 480 resolution or less).. thats $100 all up. Considering you can buy a second hand Eee PC 701 for that money and run windows XP on it or Ubuntu or Debian or Puppeee and has a 900mhz Intel CPU and 512mb ram, there is no bang for the buck here at all.

The default debian image is laughable but removing basicly everything from it and installing jwm and using xinit to bring uip the bare xorg then typing jwm to get windw resizing etc and using dillo, the system is quite fast. This is a relative term however, i am comparing the speed to an Amgia 500 running workbench or a 386 running Win 95. Even using dillo as the web browser that i am posting this message from, if you want to delete a line of text and you hold down backspace, you can literally count to 10 before the cursor moves.

If this was actually a $25 or $35 PC as it is advertised as then all well and good, but its not a $25 PC at all, there are 2 retailers for this thing and they both charge more than that price.

The debian arm repo is impressive tho and it even contains Open Arena and every other application like mplayer etc as well.

A usefull tip is to disable the swap space with: swapoff -a
For some reaon the default debian image wants to use swap even when there is only 64mb ram being used, and swapping on a SD card is slow. Turn off swap and force the 256mb ram to work for its money, thats how i roll. No one is swapping on my shift, no way. If we cant make the Rasp OS work within 256mb RAM without swapping then we should not bother at all. When this thing swaps, it pretty much dies right in front of you.

I see the pussy pie OS that i have promised to make as being a server orientated highly technical old school friendly throwback to the sort of operating systems that the Vikings had in their ships when they discovered america.

i am still deciding if it will be a console only OS or have a basic xorg system that you can use to assist you with all your terminal sessions or run the odd graphical program here and there. The xinit bare bones xorg then typing jwm to get a window manager way of doing things seems 100 times faster than the default LXDE, however its still 100 time slower than a tortise running backwards.

Cant help thinking that the designers of the default debian image only installed the apps that the rasp pi can run well, which is basicly nothing,

Xinit and using alt + ctrl + f1 through to f7 seems to actually work very well as a form of console multi tasking. For instance, have "top" running on f2, "alsamixer" on f3, a console irc client on f4, telnet to a text game on f5, and you get the picture, note however that Xinit/ Xorg is always on f7 and you can only run 1 xorg session, also f1 will only show the text output of the running of Xorg.

For those of you that want to see something spiffy on your rasp, then apt-get install bb this is a ascii art demo with sound etc. If that doesnt inspire you to do away with a desktop environment and just use the console then nothing will....

Still in the slimming stages of pussy pie. Its gone from 1.7gb to 820mb, i want to get it down to 400mb max. Puppy is a 400mb OS when you do a full HDD install, so that is comparing like for like. However, if i find a way of running a squashfs (sfs) filesystem then this would be compressed down to the same size as a puppy iso. But since the most common SD car is like 4gb in size now, a larger than Puppy filesize wont really mean anything at all.

this pussy pie will never be desktop friendly OS like Puppy but im decding if i should go the whole hog and make it a hacker type of advanced user only OS or try to present console/ terminal usage in a nifty package.
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2560
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2012, 15:59    Post_subject: Re: Rasp Pi FTW a little bit  

sickgut wrote:
I see the pussy pie OS that i have promised to make as being a server orientated highly technical old school friendly throwback to the sort of operating systems that the Vikings had in their ships when they discovered america.
Actually I read that it was the Welsh who discovered America long before the Vikings (controversial though...). I am still looking forward to using a Pi as a solar/battery powered NAS if you think you could give it a Viking style gui (I not hung up on fancy graphics, but I'm also not up to too much CLi yet).

Quote:
i am still deciding if it will be a console only OS or have a basic xorg system that you can use to assist you with all your terminal sessions or run the odd graphical program here and there...
this pussy pie will never be desktop friendly OS like Puppy but im decding if i should go the whole hog and make it a hacker type of advanced user only OS or try to present console/ terminal usage in a nifty package.

P_L_E_E_E_A_S_E give it a gui. Pleeeease!

(Actually the honest truth is I would probably benefit from a non-Gui rasp as that would force me to get my Linux-For-Dummies off the bookshelf and learn the things I've been trying to avoid. I guess that is what the rasp was intended for...). But I REALLY DO want a gui rasp because truth-be-told, that is the only way I will finish the job of building my solar NAS.

Maybe you could release two phases of rasp:
RaspServ1 = nonGUI
RaspServ2 has a gui frontend to allow quick network config/attachment etc etc.
(you can probably tell I'm a lowend user, not a dev techo...)
.
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2560
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 03 Aug 2012, 16:03    Post_subject:  

oh, and if I could just make one other comment...I think there is something problematic about the version of dhcpcd used in Pussy so if poss I think PussyPie needs a different version to ensure it will be easily connected to a wide range of routers. (just askin'...)
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