Pussy: potentially a Puppy with a perfect package manager

For talk and support relating specifically to Puppy derivatives
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sickgut
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#1696 Post by sickgut »

re: Pussy Pie server edition lighttpd "bug"

Hi people, after using my Rasp Pi with Pussy Pie server installed i found something that isnt supposed to happen. The lighttpd webserver doesnt list directories and or files in directories, it only displays webpages and so any file you wanna share over the webserver must be directly linked to from the webpage. The behavior that i was aiming for is the webserver being able to serve files immediately once they are uploaded to the /var/www/ dir that lighttpd serves from.

Apparently its just a simple conf file edit and its all sorted. I will sort this out and upload the Pussy Pie server image again rather than provide a patch.

Ill post when this is done.

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sickgut
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#1697 Post by sickgut »

Hi peeps

It looks like this Pussy DVD idea is going to change slightly. After finding myself thinking "i wish i was working on wheezy and not squeeze" way way way too much, i have decided to bite the bullet and go ahead and move this project over to a Debian Wheezy based system instead of sticking with Squeeze. The reason is there is so much more and better versions of good software that is available for Wheezy than there is Squeeze.

Also after the Pussy DVD was made i would go a head and start work on the Wheezy based Pussies so m jumping ahead of the cue and just going to start work on the wheezy base. I think this wont really add much time as most of this was research and i have been keeping a package list on my website of all the new things being added to Pussy DVD, and combine that with the apt/ dpkg status file of the Pussy Xtra, i can combine the 2 here and get Pussy Wheezy up and running.

The gap between the quality of software apps between squeeze and wheezy is just too big, wheezy is just that much better than squeeze. Altho Wheezy isnt the official stable yet, it is frozen... meaning that everything that will be added has been and there is a complete repository available for it and for all basic purposes this is ready to go.

ill keep yall uptodate with the progress of the new Pussy base. I dont know yet if im going to go straight for the Pussy DVD first, then release the smaller ones later or start small and keep adding to make the larger Xtra and DVD distros. I am also considering what to do about the whole 32 bit / 64 bit thing as well.

ill be back soon and let everyone know whats happening

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sickgut
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#1698 Post by sickgut »

seems ive hit a bump in the road.

The debian squeeze live system had its problems but it seems to work just fine once you work out the whole live-rw thing, i was expecting the debian wheezy live system to be much the same but maybe slightly improved... and this would by all accounts be a likely assumption.

However the wheezy live system is so screwed up its hard to imagine using it, for one thing, live-rw is now called persistence....
no big change tho right?

the live system ignores the persistence file if there isnt a file inside it called persistence.conf and in this file is the list of the dirs you want the live system to remember on next boot.

the problem?

this means you will have to manually edit the config file for every dir you add that you want to keep persistent. And no, you cant have the / or /live listed as persistent as this would be too easy.
You cant just save stuff you have to constantly dick around like an idiot.

the other problem?

well this one is only minor but the live persistent system in wheezy doesnt actually work yet. Even tho there is documentation explaining everything and even if you do everything it says and then spend 3 or 4 days on the debian live irc chat support channel asking wtf is the problem, its impossible to get it to work.

Oh, you want persistence? You will need to get the latest iso. You already have the latest iso? then you need to wait longer for another release. Some users have found success using the sid system rather than wheezy.

Now the above situation wouldnt have worried me at all, except all the documentation said it works, it is working, its all fine, there is no issues. It doesnt say that no one in the world has actually got it to work and what annoys me more than all that is the fact i was treated like an absolute idiot on the chat channels because i constantly asked the same question for days and days and days asking for help, while others chatted on the channel, happily ignoring me.

The answer to my question? read the man pages. read the online documentation. And i did this time and time again. It wasnt till the 4th day that the debian live dev that was logged in the whole time and actually knew about the issues finally said.... :oh yeah, well it doesnt work."

why was it so hard to just say that to begin with instead of rtfm all the time? and why have documentation saying it works and have the entire staff tell you time and time again to read the f*** manual, when they all knew that it didnt work to begin with and it has never worked?

Wheezy based Debian live is dead in the water at the moment and Squeeze is just to old to be able to run all the new things that we need to add to it and upgrade it etc.

I will either need to move to a new live base such as Ubuntu... the thought makes me puke on myself and break out in boils of sulfur.
However, the Ubuntu base does use the tried and true method of the old school "casper" system and the iso's themselves can be booted in grub. Nooby would be in heaven and whip out his endless supply of leet bootcodes, and i mean that in the most honest sincere way as well..... seriously, using an Ubuntu live base would introduce all the sweet booting stuff that we would never have even considered using in Pussy. The only problem is Ubuntu is a bloated mess but the server stuff isnt as reliable as debian but the desktop stuff and new software selection is way better.

At the moment i am weighing up the options: stick with a Wheezy Live base and use Pussies own squashfs remastering scripts in the catroll-panel as the only source of persistence (USB and HDD installs will function fine but there would be zero persistence with live CDROM or DVD).

or

Use an Ubuntu live base. Ubuntu works the same way with the whole apt-get thing and there are many similarities under the hood but we will be sacrificing a noticeable amount of performance with RAM usage and disk size. However, this will bring alot of the bleedng edge features to Pussy, thus bringing Pussy into the same league as any leet desktop bling system on the planet.

Both options make me sick to the gut. Time for sickgut to choose the least sicker of the sick things that makes sickguts gut sick.

if you would like to have your say about preference here then please have your say. Sickgut would be pleased with any feedback at all. OMG im referring to myself in the 3rd person again, i think the absolute crapness of the current debian live thing has spawned yet another new personality.

rokytnji
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#1699 Post by rokytnji »

I will either need to move to a new live base such as Ubuntu... the thought makes me puke on myself and break out in boils of sulfur.
Don't know if you wanna learn a new dance.

http://antix.freeforums.org/making-live ... t3746.html

http://antix.freeforums.org/antix-12-se ... t3829.html

$ inxi -r
Repos: Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/antix.list
deb http://www.daveserver.info/antiX/debs testing base main
deb http://debs.slavino.sk testing main
Active apt sources in file: /etc/apt/sources.list.d/debian.list
deb http://ftp.gr.debian.org/debian/ testing main contrib non-free
deb http://security.debian.org/ testing/updates main contrib non-free

Just comment out daveserver and slavinko or delete those lines and remaster a live antix instead with persistence using only the debian repos.
Posts: 666
:twisted:

Maybe disregard this post :roll: I just noticed that.
Last edited by rokytnji on Thu 08 Nov 2012, 15:05, edited 2 times in total.

nooby
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#1700 Post by nooby »

Thanks Sickgut!
"Nooby would be in heaven and whip out his endless supply
of leet bootcodes, and i mean that in the most honest sincere way
as well..... seriously, " ...

They are not really my cheat codes I just "borrow" them from two other guys.

forgot name but something D4P or similar user name. He and the other fellow
had some 145 linux distros on external USB harddisk and they described it
on their homepages and I suddenly out of accident tested to simplify the code
by testing word for word to see what did happen and one version of my
cheat actually booted and I found several Ubuntu variations that also booted

but then I got too cocky and bragged about it on Ubuntu forum and
most likely they realized my cheat could be used for to be almost as root
and they hate such so they changed something internally and only those
Ubuntu iso that is from 2011 or 2010 will work and not all of them either
but a handful.

So good luck with your experiments. I would test out what Rokytnji suggest
anti and his buddy has done something very good with AntiX so if
the Ubuntu thing fails for you give AntiX a try.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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sickgut
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#1701 Post by sickgut »

nooby wrote:Thanks Sickgut!
"Nooby would be in heaven and whip out his endless supply
of leet bootcodes, and i mean that in the most honest sincere way
as well..... seriously, " ...

They are not really my cheat codes I just "borrow" them from two other guys.

forgot name but something D4P or similar user name. He and the other fellow
had some 145 linux distros on external USB harddisk and they described it
on their homepages and I suddenly out of accident tested to simplify the code
by testing word for word to see what did happen and one version of my
cheat actually booted and I found several Ubuntu variations that also booted

but then I got too cocky and bragged about it on Ubuntu forum and
most likely they realized my cheat could be used for to be almost as root
and they hate such so they changed something internally and only those
Ubuntu iso that is from 2011 or 2010 will work and not all of them either
but a handful.

So good luck with your experiments. I would test out what Rokytnji suggest
anti and his buddy has done something very good with AntiX so if
the Ubuntu thing fails for you give AntiX a try.
you dont give yourself enough credit nooby, even if you just followed instructions from 2 other guys, you still improved upon it in a way that they couldnt do themselves. Also if you think that what you did isnt to be credited to you then no one in the puppy dev community deserves any credit either because they all use puppy that was made first by barryk. Just because someone did alot of what you do first doesnt mean your not an expert or that your knowledge isnt superior to the people doing it prior to you.

i personally think you should be like the official puppy to GRUB consultation officer or something.

cinclus_cinclus
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#1702 Post by cinclus_cinclus »

rokytnji wrote: Don't know if you wanna learn a new dance.

http://antix.freeforums.org/making-live ... -t3746.htm
Wrong link! Must be:

http://antix.freeforums.org/making-live ... t3746.html

rokytnji
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#1703 Post by rokytnji »

cinclus_cinclus wrote:
rokytnji wrote: Don't know if you wanna learn a new dance.

http://antix.freeforums.org/making-live ... -t3746.htm
Wrong link! Must be:

http://antix.freeforums.org/making-live ... t3746.html
Must have been the 666 thingy in my post. Fixed it. Thanks.

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sickgut
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#1704 Post by sickgut »

Update:

still in limbo, the debian live squeeze is too old, and debian live wheezy doesnt work well yet. I am considering all the options, pussy will live, pussy will catch fish from the sky and birds from the ocean, just coz pussy is that good. When the new breed of pussy is done it will be so intelligent that pussy him/ herself will automatically frame your enemies for unlikely crimes and free pizza will constantly be delivered to your door 24/ 7. Pussy will rule the world, but right now pussy is finding the best 1337 base he can.

i heard that pussy was looking into ubuntu and or maybe a distro apt-get upgrade of the current pussy using its current live system but the rest upgraded to wheezy. I have not told pussy about antix yet but pussy will continue to be both sweet and awesome some time soon.

Ill post again soon when pussy and i have found a decent base OS live system for his soul to be transfered to.

in the meantime, i would like to thank everyone for their support for more than a year now.

rokytnji
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#1705 Post by rokytnji »

I have not told pussy about antix yet
This is a Testing Base Iso 64bit AntiX 12.5 alpha 2 install running JWM at the moment. Slim login screen uses F1 key to toggle between Fluxbox and JWM with or without rox desktop.

Just showing you maybe shortcuts for building Pussy. For a no X option hardcore Pussy build. Go for the core iso which has apt-get and ceni for network connection and mc (mindnight commander) file manager. I have done core iso installs also using xdm as login manager and fluxbox with lxpanels for toolbars.

Anyhows. Just to show what JWM in base iso comes with (just a little taste). Wallpaper is a Photo shot sent to me by a Linux buddy in Australia of the solar eclipse recently.
Attachments
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sickgut
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#1706 Post by sickgut »

Update on the new base for Pussy:

Ubuntu 12.04 is a LTS edition, meaning that it will be kept upto date for 5 years, thats nearly 4 and a half more years.

I dont know exactly what that means. Does it mean that only security updates are provided or does it mean that any new package that is submitted to Ubuntu for release in its repos is retro fitted to this aswell?

This may be asking stupid questions that i can google easily, but im just spitting at the moment, typing whatever is on my mind and thinking out loud about a few things and to show the ppl who use Pussy the things im actually considering.

There is a minimal remix of Ubuntu that is 187MB in an ISO, and the casper-rw live system it uses seems to function the same way as debian squeeze/ current Pussy as you just have a casper-rw file instead of a live-rw file. I really think some distros just change the names of things just because they can.

Altho this may sound promising, it has been confirmed by Ubuntu that their next release will not be a Live system or atleast a Live system with persistence. This is a major step back, they have also said their OS is so damn bloated that its no longer going to be CDROM sized. However, if we run with this LTS edition, there will be support available to users 'till the 4.5 more years runs out and thats an OK thing.

This gives us 4.5 more years of using the old school casper-rw (live-rw in disguise basically). And anything on earth and i mean anything at all you can possibly imagine is much better than dealing with mostly silent or rtfm bot devs on the debian live support channel.

The functioning OS with the 187MB ISO does seem promising enough, i estimate we could reduce that further to about 120MB or so with my slimming techniques. However this give you nothing at all, this the barest of bare console only OS. This is about 40% larger and i bet uses more RAM than the Debian Live Squeeze base that Pussy has now.

I am considering the 12.04 LTS base rather than the 12.10 as the LTS means we can be up and running and remain relevant for 4.5 years.

Ubuntu uses bigmem PAE kernels for its 32 bit varieties and so there is no disadvantage there.

Ubuntu has been my arch enemy for many years (8.04 was about the last good distro they had) and it makes me feel dirty and i mean rocking back and forth naked in the shower crying kind of dirty to even consider using an Ubuntu base.

This is about the most corporate Linux you can get, there is non free firmware in the kernel, there are probably backdoors in every second line of code and if there was ever going to be an active linux virus it will be written for Ubuntu and because its high profile, popular distros that use it as a base come under scrutiny. I kinda hope Pussy doesnt get popular while using Ubuntu as a base, it gets ugly because all of a sudden you cant get away with all the "grey" areas of copyright stuff and including non free codecs i your standard install. This is why Ubuntu cant play an mp3 out the box without an update and why Win98 can. Win98 can play a mp3 with no mods because the codec is included in the price, Ubuntu is free, no one pays jack and so the company supplying the codec will become irate.

Its so depressing to think that Windows 98 from 14 years ago does more stuff out the box than the current Ubuntu. There is also the line from the the Ubuntu devs that haunts me: "Ubuntu is becoming something OTHER than Linux" meaning the plan is to become incompatible with everything else and so if you get in the Ubuntu trap, no doubt you will have to pay to do stuff that should be free, just like Windows and Mac.

Im doing some more research but it seems the Ubuntu is the best option in an evil world.

Also i am looking at making Pussy able to access as much free media content as possible. All the WebTV and web radio stuff will be there and be free. I couldnt do this in the current squeeze base, everything needed a newer kernel and it was impossible to even compile the apps needed on squeeze and the squeeze repo doesnt have any good apps for this or the apps need to be run as a normal user rather than root and just crash with no output to tell you whats wrong. Owning Pussy and a internet connection should be just as good as having digital radio, cable TV, satelite TV and do everything else like that.

OK peeps ill check back when work has started.

Bob_the_plumber
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#1707 Post by Bob_the_plumber »

Well but.. if you use ubuntu you will lose your soul

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sickgut
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#1708 Post by sickgut »

Bob_the_plumber wrote:Well but.. if you use ubuntu you will lose your soul
today at 12:40pm, i infact did loose my soul.

Been messing with the Ubuntu 12.04 mini remix iso. Everything seems to work ok andi reduced the 187mb iso to 155mb, still too big (this is just a skeleton) and managed to get the casper-rw persistence working.

However, i was curious about a Configuring network..... error
and an additional Waiting for up to 60 seconds to configure network.....

And a little searching revealed this is a known bug and there is no solution yet. You can remove all of the autodetecton network stuff and use nano and ifup and ifdown etc to assign ip's manually tho....

So, this is what i expected with Ubuntu. There is a pause that lasts for more than 2 minutes, the computer is doing nothing and its a known bug with the solution being "remove the network stuff". There is no other fix. This is just how it is, the OS seems like it would load reasonably quickly and then just stops for 2 minutes.

well its par for the course im afraid.

The absolute stupidity of Ubuntu and Debian Live Wheezy simply amazes me. I really thought that i had seen it all but obviously i had not.

Seriously considering if i should go the CentOS route or even slackware. They both have package management similar to apt-get altho the "yum" in CentOS is so damn complicated its like a step back. I havent used slackware to know how good their package management is, i only know that it exists. CentOS would give us immediate street cred for server stuff and slackware would get the attention of the ultra geeks that are twice as obese and have even less of a social life as me.

im not even disappointed. I knew Ubuntu can and could not ever be as easy as simple setting it up and using it how its supposed to be done and 100% of the time its 100% buggy and is completely worthless for absolutely every use other than to confuse Linux users and increase the sales of Windows and Mac and Android pc/ devices and or cause users to become so annoyed that they use pen and paper rather than a computer and play games on a PS3 or Xbox.

nooby
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#1709 Post by nooby »

Don't take the following serious. How did this guy named Penk from Thailand
set up his xpud OS? He uses ubuntu as the base and get persistence going
and most likely he is root too? Just me guessing. I did a frugal install and
it works good.

He is on to other projects now but maybe one can still download
enough of his work to get how he did that?

http://www.xpud.org/
http://code.google.com/p/xpud/
Source Code - http://github.com/penk/mkxpud

grub4os menu.lst entry Sadly I am too laxy to check it out
but one or two of the following should work. They are for different iso

title xPUD 0.9.2
root (hd0,1)
kernel /boot/bzImage noisapnp lang=en screen=1024x786 initrd=driver.opt,codecs.opt,apps.opt
initrd /opt/core


title xPUD 0.9.2 boots with persist
root (hd0,1)
kernel /boot/bzImage isofrom=/xpud-0.9.2.iso noisapnp lang=en screen=1024x786 initrd=driver.opt initrd=codecs.opt initrd=apps.opt
initrd /opt/core


title xPUD latest xpud-10272010.iso boots with persist ? uses Chrome
root (hd0,1)
kernel /boot/bzImage isofrom=/xpud-10272010.iso noisapnp lang=en screen=1024x786
initrd /opt/core


title xPUD latest? xpud-10272010.iso
root=hd(0,1)
kernel /boot/bzImage noisapnp lang=en initrd=driver.opt,codecs.opt,apps.opt screen=1024x786
initrd /opt/core

There is a forum but almost none uses it.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

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Xtanova
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#1710 Post by Xtanova »

Hi sickgut

Sorry about your frustration with Debian wheezy .. for my assumption if Debian performance is getting to be unreliable, no wonder if users will move to other distros than Debian and Ubuntu like Mageia.

Forgive me for my random wondering ..I'm just a newbie .. but why LMDE 201204 is non of your choices..It has casper like ubuntu, and if I'm not mistaken it can be added to grub2 menu.

Code: Select all

menuentry "Linux Mint Debian (LMDE) 64-bit" {
#linux /casper/vmlinuz rootfstype=vfat boot=live live-media-path=/casper quiet splash --
linux /casper/vmlinuz boot=live live-media-path=/casper quiet splash --
initrd /casper/initrd.lz
casper rw persistence can be added after boot.

There is a Dev got inspired already by Puppy and AntiX, and made a stripped version of LMDE: http://www.swiftlinux.org/
Target Markets

Windows users, especially Windows XP users
Ubuntu 10.04 LTS users
Linux Mint users with computers that just barely meet hardware requirements
Puppy Linux users who want a larger software repository for the more specialized applications available
antiX Linux users who want better hardware/codec support for things like watching DVDs
Users of forensic/recovery live CDs

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sickgut
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#1711 Post by sickgut »

Xtanova wrote:Hi sickgut

Sorry about your frustration with Debian wheezy .. for my assumption if Debian performance is getting to be unreliable, no wonder if users will move to other distros than Debian and Ubuntu like Mageia.

Forgive me for my random wondering ..I'm just a newbie .. but why LMDE 201204 is non of your choices..It has casper like ubuntu, and if I'm not mistaken it can be added to grub2 menu.

Code: Select all

menuentry "Linux Mint Debian (LMDE) 64-bit" {
#linux /casper/vmlinuz rootfstype=vfat boot=live live-media-path=/casper quiet splash --
linux /casper/vmlinuz boot=live live-media-path=/casper quiet splash --
initrd /casper/initrd.lz
casper rw persistence can be added after boot.

There is a Dev got inspired already by Puppy and AntiX, and made a stripped version of LMDE: http://www.swiftlinux.org/
Target Markets

Windows users, especially Windows XP users
Ubuntu 10.04 LTS users
Linux Mint users with computers that just barely meet hardware requirements
Puppy Linux users who want a larger software repository for the more specialized applications available
antiX Linux users who want better hardware/codec support for things like watching DVDs
Users of forensic/recovery live CDs
the only way to make an OS how i want it to be is start with the absolute barest essentials. Starting with Linux Mint would mean i would need to strip everything out till its a 80mb or so shell and then start again.

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sickgut
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#1712 Post by sickgut »

At present im still waiting for the persistence to be introduced to Debian Live Wheezy. i may have been overly critical of the Debian Live ppl as wheezy isnt actually the stable flagship yet, its still a "testing" release.

I figured i would go ahead with Wheezy because we could add the compressed save file method from Pussy to this, but there is a limitation, if you use it for a while more and more adds up in the live/cow dir and this is not dumped to the hdd and the ram cleared. Even if you have a swapfile, the RAM gets all used up, unless there is an actual live-rw persistence in real time. Even when you do create and or update a compressed save file in Pussy, it still doesnt flush the live/cow that lives in RAM and has a copy of everything that has been written to the virtual "filesystem".

Then i took a look at Ubuntu and the 12.10 edition, while not a LTS does actually work but there is a terrible price to pay. Wheezy boots and uses 50mb of RAM, Ubuntu 12.10 boots and uses 160mb of RAM. Wheezy only uses 20mb or so more RAM than Squeeze did, but Ubuntu is such a hog that the battle has been lost before its even begun.

There is a pic on the website showing Pussy using only 42mb of ram while running all the xorg and server stuff..... if we use Wheezy this may be 62mb, if we use Ubuntu, this will be more like 200mb.

So basically I am waiting for the Live Persistence problem to be solved in Wheezy and to use Wheezy as the base.

the debian live team assure me that it will be solved soon and that the new system will also have backwards compatibility with the old live-rw system. The live-rw system will be used instead of the newer persistence.conf setup that is too fiddly. Once this persistence prob is solved in Wheezy, we are back to business as usual.

in the mean time im just waiting. Best to do something properly rather than start using Ubuntu as a base and then start again when wheezy is fixed.
Last edited by sickgut on Fri 30 Nov 2012, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.

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sickgut
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#1713 Post by sickgut »

i think i will adopt the following slogan as gospel for Pussy development:

"Its best to do something properly than to use Ubuntu".

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sickgut
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#1714 Post by sickgut »

double post, plz remove

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darkcity
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#1715 Post by darkcity »

Some people are saying Ubuntu 12.10 is a security risk because it sends anything you type into the dash search to a Canonical server (by default).

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