ARM... Again... Any chance for Puppy on the 25 USD PC?

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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qkall
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#31 Post by qkall »

i obviously have some reading to do... but i'm confused i kinda thought the purpose of t2 and/or woof was to get rid of these compatibility issues?

nooby
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#32 Post by nooby »

qkall wrote:i obviously have some reading to do... but i'm confused i kinda thought the purpose of t2 and/or woof was to get rid of these compatibility issues?
But was not that still within x86 or what it is named. Intel CPU that was the one that puppy always have worked on. While ARM is a totally other beast.

For to get ARM to work you need Debian them have code for some of the ARM. I don't know if them have for every version of ARM.

How many ARM cpus are there ? more than 10 or so and all of them different enough for one Dev to get headache?
And them change them each six months or so don't they?
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not an ideal solution though

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Dave_G
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#33 Post by Dave_G »

To quote nooby:
How many ARM cpus are there ? more than 10 or so and all of them different enough for one Dev to get headache?
And them change them each six months or so don't they?
That is not the only problem, who is to say that all other resources such as
VGA, HDMI, RAM, USB, etc etc are all at the same locations on all the boards.

It would be impossible to code anything worthwhile if these along with the actual CPUs are not "standardized".

jamesbond
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#34 Post by jamesbond »

Dave_G wrote:To quote nooby:
How many ARM cpus are there ? more than 10 or so and all of them different enough for one Dev to get headache?
And them change them each six months or so don't they?
That is not the only problem, who is to say that all other resources such as
VGA, HDMI, RAM, USB, etc etc are all at the same locations on all the boards.

It would be impossible to code anything worthwhile if these along with the actual CPUs are not "standardized".
In addition:
- rooting required?
- what to do if bricked?
- JTAG cable ready required?
- serial TTL-converter required?
- soldering skill necessary?
Not showstoppers but definitely not for the casual hobbyists (which most of puppy Devs are).

And add the fact that while ARM itself is open and well-documented, other hardware resources mentioned by Dave_G above, are usually not (DSP, video, audio, networking, etc). How then could Linux ARM ever work on it? The same reason nvidia/ati proprietary driver works - binary blobs.

Can't this be overcome? Don't we see a lot of "mods" by other people, building custom ROMs and such? Yes, of course - as I said, this isn't a showstopper for a dedicated, motivated hardcore hacker. But if one is hardcore hacker, one doesn't hang around in Puppy forums fixing shell scripts ... :roll: (no disrespect intended, I'm one of those shell-script fixers too :P)
EDIT: typo and grammar
Last edited by jamesbond on Fri 09 Sep 2011, 13:07, edited 1 time in total.
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nooby
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#35 Post by nooby »

James Bond is right. There are hackers out there that love to do their own ROM that one can download and exchage the custom ROM with.

That way one can get access to the innards and use apps that are made by community of such hackers.

Jailbreaking or what it is named. I admire their skills but not being that savvy I realize that to get a Puppy on a Surf pad tablet type of computer one need to be at least as savvy as them are?
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darkcity
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#36 Post by darkcity »

There is standardization within the ARM processor.

In this case ARMv6
Will it run <insert name of program here>?
In general, you need to look to see whether the program you want can be compiled for the ARMv6 architecture. In most cases the answer will be yes. Specific programs are discussed on our forum, so you might want to look there for an answer.
People are talking like an ARM computer has never been built before.
What Linux distros will be supported at launch?
Debian, Fedora and ArchLinux will be supported from the start. We hope to see support from other distros later. We will be selling SD cards with the distros preloaded. (Sept 4 2011 – originally, this FAQ suggested that Ubuntu would be supported. Because of issues with newer releases of Ubuntu and the ARM processor we are using, Ubuntu can’t commit to support Raspberry Pi at the moment.)

nooby
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#37 Post by nooby »

Good News ?

Bodhi say them are doing Archos ARM

http://bodhilinux.com/
Bodhi is coming to ARM! Our first alpha release is ready for ArchOS Gen8 tablets. Learn more here
http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2011/0 ... pha-1.html
so what does that mean?

Bodhi is a form of Debian. I am in it now on Acer D250 which has an Intel Atom CPU N270

so one can learn about it using a usb with grub2 on it and boot it.
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nooby
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#38 Post by nooby »

A well known? thing are these "Hackers" or "Jailbreakers" that create their own ROM that them load into the hardware and that way get access to the innards of a computer product that usually are locked to an Operator's way to decide what should be available and when.

The good thing is that you get choice. You have two options instead of one or maybe three or more if many such "Hackers" are at it for that model you bought.

Usually on Mobile Phones but Tablets also have been hacked.

Read more about one of the successful such organization.
http://www.addictivetips.com/mobile/the ... ough-guide
For a list of devices officially supported by CyanogenMod, check out the official CyanogenMod page.

Such is the craze for CyanogenMod, that devices that aren’t officially supported, still manage to receive ports of the ROM courtesy of enthusiasts and developers.

CyanogenMod is said to offer the most barebone Android experience coupled with some very powerful tweaks.
This whole package by now is not wholly developed by CyanogenMod developers alone,
but is a collaborative effort between them and independent developers
on sites like XDA-Developers.


An example?
Nook Color rooted
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 0b6#542991
I bought a Nook Color tablet and it only took 30 minutes to Root it with CyanogenMod v7.

By the way... the Nook is awesome for just $250

7 inch multi-touch
ARM 8 Cortex cpu
512MB ram
OpenGL v1.0, 1.1 and v2.0 support
Wifi
Bluetooth
microUSB port
upto 32GB of microSD card supported.



After that it was easy to install Ubuntu 10.10 in a chroot.

But the Nook only has 512MB of ram and I'd really like to get Puppy Linux running on it.

Both Ubuntu & Debian can be installed on ARM based tablets.

Has anyone yet figured out how to put Puppy Linux on a tablet in a chroot?
Also Bodhi Linux which is a Debian derivative? can be used on ARM them claim.
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Dougal
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#39 Post by Dougal »

Speaking of ARM devices... for those who missed the $99 HP TouchPad sale, this also seems like a decent device that's really cheap.
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qkall
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#40 Post by qkall »

yeah but i read that the second factory shipments were only for orders they couldn't fulfill last time...

nooby
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#41 Post by nooby »

[quote]Here are some specifications:

* 7-inch (800×480, 16:9) with Resistive Digital Touch Screen
* Screen: 6″ x 3.5″
* Weight: 13oz
* Processor Speed 700MHz
* Operating System Android version 2.1 (Froyo)
* 4 GB Built-in Flash Memory
* Built in 256MB DDR-ll RAM
* Built-in WiFi (802.11 b/g)
* Mini HDMI AV -Out- Jack
* Mini USB to Connect to Computer
* USB Host (Full sized USB Jack)
* Micro SD Card Slot (Support Max. 32GB)
* Built-in Rechargable Battery (up to 6 hours continuous use)
* Built-in Speaker and Microphone
* Supports: Browser, e-Book Reader, e-Mail, Photos, Maps, Video, You Tube, Facebook, Twitter, Music, Apps, Marketplace, Clock
* 3.5mm Stero Headphone Jack
* 3G Ready (For USB Connection)
* Has a 4 Way Accelerometer

Pros:

* The price is very cheap with great capabilities. I think it’s enough to give you convenient while browsing internet, reading e-book, or just playing music and watching movies.

Cons:

* No Cameras
* No “Multi-Touch
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Dougal
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#42 Post by Dougal »

qkall wrote:yeah but i read that the second factory shipments were only for orders they couldn't fulfill last time...
You mean the TouchPad? I think it's because they originally hoped to sell a lot, so they had their suppliers make a lot of parts... now the suppliers are stuck with a lot of parts they have nothing to do with, so HP said they'd buy them from them. Note also that HP are not killing WebOS -- they're moving to become more of a SW company (the new CEO is a SW person) -- so this way they actually help spread WebOS... (and the money they lose probably just means paying less taxes)
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8-bit
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#43 Post by 8-bit »

The -25 USD PC is a reality.
It is digital, you wear it on your arm/wrist and it tells time.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Remember how much digital watches cost when they were introduced.

If anything is stopping a 25 USD PC becoming a reality, it is the value suppliers place on the components that go into it and the idea of making a buck.

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Dave_G
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#44 Post by Dave_G »

8-bit,

Although manufactures are always looking to make a quick buck, there
are other economic factors that must be taken into account.
In the case of the ARM CPU, it's slightly different then the case with the x86.
With the x86, Intel not only holds the IP (intellectual property) of the x86,
they also manufacture it.
However the with the ARM, things are slightly different, ARM Holdings plc hold
the IP and license it to manufacturers such as Atmel, Cirrus, Freescale (previously Motorolla),
NXP (previously Philips) and so on.

So these manufactures have to pay royalties to ARM Holdings and also amortize
the tremendous costs of chip design and wafer fabrication.

As we all know, any computer of any description needs RAM.
RAM prices also fluctuate widely depending on supply and demand.
Remember a few years back the cost of DIMMS suddenly shot up?
This was because producers cut back on production during the start
of the recession then when demand exceed supply they got caught with
their pants down and during the "catch up" period costs escalated.

RAM by the way is the most used "peripheral" IC as it's used from everything
from CD/DVD players, to PCs, to Xbox, Playstation, you name it, it uses it.

Make no mistake, prices will come down as more and more manufactures
produce ARM CPUs and thet reach their break even point at the silicon
production foundries.

It's a complicated game this semi-conductor one.

Dave.

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#45 Post by Atle »


Svartalf
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#46 Post by Svartalf »

nooby wrote: For to get ARM to work you need Debian them have code for some of the ARM. I don't know if them have for every version of ARM.

How many ARM cpus are there ? more than 10 or so and all of them different enough for one Dev to get headache?
And them change them each six months or so don't they?
Not really. Code to an earlier version of ARM. Say, ARMv5, for example. As long as you're not trying to do Thumb code, your code will work on pretty much any ARM out there from about the last 4-5 years. Debian's repository has that going on right now.

Svartalf
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#47 Post by Svartalf »

jamesbond wrote:n addition:
- rooting required?
- what to do if bricked?
- JTAG cable ready required?
- serial TTL-converter required?
- soldering skill necessary?
1) No rooting required for R-Pi, Igloo, Gumstix, BeagleBoard, or PandaBoard. All ARMv6 or ARMv7 machines.

2) Really hard to brick these devices. And, in the case of an R-Pi, you yank the SD, re-image, re-insert the SD, and BOOT.

3) No J-TAG required, though serial consoles to help with things ARE there.

4) There's a serial TTL-Converter needed in the case of an R-Pi, but it's a stock thing you can grab from SparkFun and elsewhere- anything you're using for Arduino will work in this case and pretty much all of the solutions are only $15-20US plus what shipping would cost you.

5) There is no soldering skill needed for ANY of the ARM boards I mention...unless you're wanting to add GPIO lines off of it, that sort of thing.

nooby
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#48 Post by nooby »

Svartalf thanks for caring about getting Puppy on an arm cpu.

I am a pessimist so what I wrote was more what happens if one
buy a Surfing tablet pad cheap variety.
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sickgut
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#49 Post by sickgut »

i presume you cant just put the puppy kernel onto ARM, and having said that, whoever develops a puppy for ARM will end up having to fight tooth and nail to get their OS accepted here unless barry himself does it. There will be so many wining people saying its not a puppy because of this or that.....not least of which is the fact the traditional xvesa or xorg with roxfiler and jwm or openbox is way way way too much to ask of the cpu

but the main problem i see is unrealistic expectations of the performance of the hardware.
Do people actually know how slow and i mean slow, not just slow i mean really really really really really S L O W an ARM cpu is?

have a guess.

now let me tell you. Yes i have a extreemly stripped down bare as bare can be debian running on an ARM device. The OS is smaller than Puppy and it loads to a desktop in....
wait for it ..... w a i t .... for .... it..... 3 or 4 minutes. To run gimp, it takes about a minute to load and then its so slow once your in the application that the system cant keep up when you draw a line... it will pause for about 10 secconds then draw part of your line, pause another 5 secconds then draw the last bit of one line.... to write your name will take you maybe 5 or 6 secconds of moving the mouse but the gimp will need about 35 secconds to render it on screen... to run firefox? about 25 secconds you see the OS draw it on the screen but its not usable for about another 20 secconds.

Multitasking? Compiling?
I have been using the http://dead-souls.net mmorpg text adventure game for years and it compiles in about 45 secconds on my AMD 2800+ cpu with 512mb ram. On an ARM tablet with 256mb ram, this takes well over 45 miutes. And dont think that the ram is the bottle neck, as no more than 90mb was used at any one time.

this kind of slowness restricts everything. sure the raspberry has a usb port, but dont be under the impression you will be able to burn cd's at 40x speed. The hdparm figures for disk read and writes to an SD card where less than 1MB a seccond on my ARM device. Yes we are talking 850kbs a seccond.

The console stuff is fine to like ssh into it or whatever, for a webserver its fine, to run a text game server its ok... just dont expect to use it like you do an actual computer with a desktop OS, there is a reason that ARM cpus power the crappy slow android tablets, its because they are crappy and slow and android is still too much for them to run comfortably in alot of cases, certainly slower than puppy on a old computer. If you put puppy on one of these it will be like 10 times slower than the android OS that is completely optimized for ARM cpus.

just my 2 cents

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darkcity
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#50 Post by darkcity »

sickgut wrote:i presume you cant just put the puppy kernel onto ARM, and having said that, whoever develops a puppy for ARM will end up having to fight tooth and nail to get their OS accepted here unless barry himself does it. There will be so many wining people saying its not a puppy because of this or that.....not least of which is the fact the traditional xvesa or xorg with roxfiler and jwm or openbox is way way way too much to ask of the cpu

but the main problem i see is unrealistic expectations of the performance of the hardware.
Do people actually know how slow and i mean slow, not just slow i mean really really really really really S L O W an ARM cpu is?

have a guess.

now let me tell you. Yes i have a extreemly stripped down bare as bare can be debian running on an ARM device. The OS is smaller than Puppy and it loads to a desktop in....
wait for it ..... w a i t .... for .... it..... 3 or 4 minutes. To run gimp, it takes about a minute to load and then its so slow once your in the application that the system cant keep up when you draw a line... it will pause for about 10 secconds then draw part of your line, pause another 5 secconds then draw the last bit of one line.... to write your name will take you maybe 5 or 6 secconds of moving the mouse but the gimp will need about 35 secconds to render it on screen... to run firefox? about 25 secconds you see the OS draw it on the screen but its not usable for about another 20 secconds.

Multitasking? Compiling?
I have been using the http://dead-souls.net mmorpg text adventure game for years and it compiles in about 45 secconds on my AMD 2800+ cpu with 512mb ram. On an ARM tablet with 256mb ram, this takes well over 45 miutes. And dont think that the ram is the bottle neck, as no more than 90mb was used at any one time.

this kind of slowness restricts everything. sure the raspberry has a usb port, but dont be under the impression you will be able to burn cd's at 40x speed. The hdparm figures for disk read and writes to an SD card where less than 1MB a seccond on my ARM device. Yes we are talking 850kbs a seccond.

The console stuff is fine to like ssh into it or whatever, for a webserver its fine, to run a text game server its ok... just dont expect to use it like you do an actual computer with a desktop OS, there is a reason that ARM cpus power the crappy slow android tablets, its because they are crappy and slow and android is still too much for them to run comfortably in alot of cases, certainly slower than puppy on a old computer. If you put puppy on one of these it will be like 10 times slower than the android OS that is completely optimized for ARM cpus.

just my 2 cents
You seriously under estimate what the ARM processor is capable of. Where is your evidence of the Rasberry Pi's speed?

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