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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
A true concern about the very future of Puppylinux
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ndujoe1

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 693

PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 11:47    Post subject: musing about future of PC's  

I don't know if this argument is relevant?

But I recall when Geos was being developed it was essentially hardware independent as there were versions for Apple, IBM, Mac, and Commodore.

Can Puppy be created in the same mold?
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Saturn

Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 15:44    Post subject:  

ndujoe it very well could be done that, way I think, but I don't think anyone would be interested in doing all that work

at least to my knowledge, as far as I know about programming ,for each system, it would have to be specifically compiled( If coded in a high level, or object oriented programing language) for each processor architecture, as different cpu's of different constructions handle things quite differently in both software/firmware, known as registers, that contain the machine code(possibly written in assembly?) to process and handle system functions,like handling I\O ,other systems calls and such
.
I think C++ and all other languages are some how translated into machine code too, by the cpu or something else, because when you really get down to the very deep into internals of the system it's all binary...

But then again, your point may be valid if every architecture worked on the binary system
(it just might, really not a expert in system design or know all the architectural differences between all the different processors, types only know a "Tad" bit of how the x86 platform functions)

'Just sayin...
If binary code is Truly universal, on which all processor builds are based on...
Then it might work

But coding in pure machine language is confusing, complicated and has an extremely sharp,steep and dizzying learning curve

Dare I say writing and compiling machine code takes a special mindset?


ndujoe, does this answer your inquiry at all?

Let me know,
Thanks!
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ndujoe1

Joined: 04 Dec 2005
Posts: 693

PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 17:57    Post subject: Puppy's future  

You answered it very well. It is a high bar to travel. If Barry had $1 Billion on hand no problem :)

To assembly a cadre of programmers for that level of work on open source it would be asking too much.

Joe
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec 2011, 19:56    Post subject:  

I believe xbasic compiles to nmemonics/assembler, on the fly, and is about as close to machine code as programming gets, without actually writing directly in machine code
I think there are way too many differences in hardware processor code to support chips, and even drivers, whether in the kernel, or called on demand; from my understanding, even the hard drives are coded differently for each, x86/32/64/mac/ppc/IBM/sun/amiga/commodore, etc and even desktop/workstation/server have different pci hardware slots/ram addressing/scsi/sas/fibre etc....and it's changing all the time, with the trend now towards multi processor, up to 50 cpus per chip, I've seen, so multitasking and ram size and speeds will play a crucial role in the near future
I hope Barry's venture into Arm is more successful than the Edubook/OLPC efforts

also see http://www.pictutorials.com/Harvard_vs_Von_Nuemann_Architecture.htm

http://infocenter.arm.com/help/index.jsp?topic=/com.arm.doc.faqs/ka11516.html

Aitch Smile
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Tue 13 Dec 2011, 06:18    Post subject:  

when i didnt renew my 5 year lease on my warehouse for my computer full retail plus shipping business [EDIT: WTF << the forum changed the word w-h-o-l-e- -- -s-a-l-e to say full retail + shipping!...] in 2002, i kinda felt that PC computers would be $50 boxes you put next to your TV and they would have no user serviceable parts inside them and retailers would only make $10 on the sale of these boxes and for me being a full retail plus shipping selling to retailers, i would be making like $1 or 2 per unit. i thought this would happen in 5 years time ( 2007 or so...it didnt, but its starting to happen now). I decided it was time to get out of computer hardware.

ARM devices are still no where near PC in raw power. Altho flstudio is currently being developed for android and i expect other major software vendors will do the same. In the meantime, if you really wanna do some video editing and etc then PC will still be around for a while. The playstation and xbox have made the PC obselete for gaming, so now the Mac type of computers are on an even ground with PCs (not alot of games made for Mac)

When ARM devices are as powerful as a base PC, then this is when it would be pointless to own a PC, as you can just attach a nice monitor, mouse, keyboard and speakers and dvd burner to your tablet device.

This wont happen overnight but it will happen, just like a popular brand of shampoo.

Im sure puppy devs will made a puppy for these devices, but we need to wait till they are powerful enough and are actually available for the common folk first.

There is no reason to believe that puppy wont be ported to these powerful small devices in the future, but right now the problem is they arent powerful enough... give it a few years and they will be. Either there will be a way of including x86 cpus in small devices or the ARM ones will get way better, either way it doesnt matter.
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4127
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sun 18 Dec 2011, 17:50    Post subject:  

Where we are going??? ...very future of Puppylinux???

There rising tide is NOT hardware dependent. There is and has been an awful lot of attention paid in the forum to Hardware. "This CPU versus that CPU ..." ???

As computer amateurs/professionals (and that what this community is), the contributions is about an OS with common applications in the hands of the users.

Whether we like the following statement or not "IBM/Novell/Microsoft/Citrix/VMware/Debian-Redhat have paved the way for what we are doing here."

The industry is what WE should be looking at....NOT CPUs. They are guiding the users. Its NOT ARMs or INTELs pr AMDs. Its direction and the steering of users.

I hope those of you who can see this make an impact which guides to what the masses are being steer to. Its not hardware, my friends, its about how they are being steer to use something which affect profitability.

I have been giving some non-confidential leads in the past. Here's another. Interactive Touch screen App Stores in both business and personal space.

Look in your hand if you want to know where the masses are being steered.

If you want the future....open your eyes....its already happening closer to you than the sunglasses over your ears. And that is NOT CPUs. Its users the UIs and the interactive multimedia functionality that is going to be commonplace. That's your future! Mine too, if I live just a couple more years.

Hope this helps

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3 Different Puppy Search Engine or use DogPile
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Sun 18 Dec 2011, 18:34    Post subject:  

Given the rapid progression of change even within Puppy Linux development, I think it's more about ongoing learning while moving on. Regarding tablets, they have their place, but don't replace laptops...way too restrictive. On a laptop, there's no need for a touchscreen.
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Aitch


Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 6825
Location: Chatham, Kent, UK

PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec 2011, 08:51    Post subject:  

gcmartin....something like this? [not including all the apple/ipod/ipad stores]

http://www.hp.com/united-states/campaigns/touchsmart/#/Home

http://crave.cnet.co.uk/printers/lexmark-interact-the-touchscreen-printer-with-its-own-app-store-49303502/

http://digitalsignageuniverse.typepad.com/digital_signage_universe/2011/03/jcpenney-installs-42-inch-interactive-touchscreen-kiosks-at-120-locations.html

Yep, see 'em coming...just hope not to stand in front of a giant BSOD at the future bank Wink

Aitch Smile
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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Sun 25 Dec 2011, 23:41    Post subject:  

gcmartin wrote:
Where we are going??? ...very future of Puppylinux???

There rising tide is NOT hardware dependent. There is and has been an awful lot of attention paid in the forum to Hardware. "This CPU versus that CPU ..." ???

As computer amateurs/professionals (and that what this community is), the contributions is about an OS with common applications in the hands of the users.

Whether we like the following statement or not "IBM/Novell/Microsoft/Citrix/VMware/Debian-Redhat have paved the way for what we are doing here."

The industry is what WE should be looking at....NOT CPUs. They are guiding the users. Its NOT ARMs or INTELs pr AMDs. Its direction and the steering of users.

I hope those of you who can see this make an impact which guides to what the masses are being steer to. Its not hardware, my friends, its about how they are being steer to use something which affect profitability.

I have been giving some non-confidential leads in the past. Here's another. Interactive Touch screen App Stores in both business and personal space.

Look in your hand if you want to know where the masses are being steered.

If you want the future....open your eyes....its already happening closer to you than the sunglasses over your ears. And that is NOT CPUs. Its users the UIs and the interactive multimedia functionality that is going to be commonplace. That's your future! Mine too, if I live just a couple more years.

Hope this helps


The problem with getting Puppy to run on a small device IS infact CPU (mostly), because you simply cant run the current puppy on such a device, like a tablet or a phone. It simply wont work at all, not one bit, not reduced in some way... i mean not at all. Puppy is coded for the intel i386 or x86 platform and some support the 64 bit CPUs as well.

We literally have to reinvent the wheel to make Puppy for ARM CPUs. Its completely different code, no binaries from normal puppy will work at all. There is a few teams gathered ready and waiting for this raspberry thing to be released, and this will most likely pave the way for the ARM CPU puppy being born, then later refined and shoehorned on to everything else, even then its not a matter of simply compiling a normal Puppy with ARM code, not i386 binary code.... how it all works will have to be changed in such a way to run fewer things at once, xorg and jwm and firefox and roxfiler all running on an ARM based system will grind to a halt, any ARM puppy will most likely not resemble the PC puppy in its interface and desktop etc because ARM isnt powerful enough to do that at a usable speed where the normal users wouldnt actually rip their hair out then shoot themselves when they click on gimp and FF and wait for them to load at the same time.

Yes, touchscreen small devices are where its all at, but unless they all start to run intel i386 compatible cpus overnight, at the present getting puppy to run on them is all about the hardware.
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Mon 26 Dec 2011, 02:12    Post subject:  

Command line Puppy boots on ARM already Smile
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PARM

Cheap ARM boards for us to start working on common hardware
will be available in 2012
They are Raspberry Pi and many of us including developers are committed to testing and supporting this initiative. Cool

Woof2 will support multi CPU architectures.
I expect the same arguments to occur once the MIPS based dragon chip becomes ubiquitous. Rolling Eyes

Guys, we are a mongrel Linux.
We change, we adapt, some of us are wer-puppys. Some are even more unconventional. For example some are purring along quite nicely . . .
http://puppylinux.info/topic/pussy-linux-discution-continues-here

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nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Mon 26 Dec 2011, 02:50    Post subject:  

gcmartin is the best to answer but as I grasp it
what you refer to is that the industry needs profit.

They want to sell apps and entertainment in the hands
of the customer. Smartphones and tablets that are powerful
enough to play music and videos but not do editing.

So PC will become as expensive as Workstations where some
30 years ago. Only companies and rich people will own them.
1986 I bought my first IBM compatible PC and that was a used
one with a Taiwan mother board and make shift collections of
brands so no official IBM PC but compatible. Cost me a fortune

Apart from the Second Market for used PC but them will end up
pretty soon. Okay a few Entusiasts will ahve their own Game machines
out of nostalgia but no computer shop will sell them for prices that
is affordable to the average Joe.

So it will be Tablets and Smartphones that use SD cards or The Cloud
to save what them fail to pay for to have enough of SD to store.

The big companies owning the clouds will force us to see ads or
to pay for to not see the ads Smile So that is my naive grasp of what
you gcmartin say. Correct me if I am wrong.

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not an ideal solution though
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Mon 26 Dec 2011, 03:06    Post subject:  

Convergence.
TV's with a built in PC is only about twenty years overdue . . .

The Cloud wants to own your data, rent you apps and advertise
the latest Googlies. Shocked

Pah!
We Puppys have other plans . . .
. . . in fact I feel the genius of our plan is we don't have one . . .
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/puppy-71/puppy-2012-a-920520/

Wait . . . we have fun . . . all else follows Smile
Happy New 2012 guys

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sickgut


Joined: 23 Mar 2010
Posts: 1157
Location: Tasmania, Australia in the mountains.

PostPosted: Mon 26 Dec 2011, 03:30    Post subject:  

ive been looking forward to the era when the personal computer/ tablet/ phone that does the whole thing you need is $60 or so.

puppy will be there, we will adapt
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Sky Aisling


Joined: 27 Jun 2009
Posts: 900
Location: Port Townsend, WA. USA

PostPosted: Mon 26 Dec 2011, 15:37    Post subject:    

Thanks, Lobster
Best chuckle of the morning.

Quote:
Pah!
We Puppys have other plans . . .
. . . in fact I feel the genius of our plan is we don't have one . . .


May I quote you in the future?
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Mon 26 Dec 2011, 20:15    Post subject:  

Sky Aisling wrote:
May I quote you in the future?

I am glad you have access to my future quotes. Shocked

Quote:
6. Supersmartphones, exoskeletons and wearable systems

Smartphones should have 100 times the processing by 2015. (Nvidia roadmap)
In the 2020s, we should have petaflop mobile systems. The supersmartphones are certain developments.

http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/12/technology-areas-to-watch-in-2012.html

I agree that phones are little use for the way many of us
use our big boxer dog hardware.
We need a keyboard and large touch screen (not yet mainstream).

This is the tiny, cheap (credit card size) ARM motherboard some of us are committing to buying in 2012, for our first ARM Puppy


http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PARM
Fun times ahead . . .

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