Puppy 6

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jemimah · #16 Post by **jemimah** » Fri 20 Jan 2012, 22:33

I don't intend saluki to vie for the Puppy 6 title. I personally find building build systems dull so I'm thrilled that someone else wants to do it. Count me in for the "serious" team.

Lobster · #17 Post by **Lobster** » Tue 31 Jan 2012, 23:56

Thanks to Igu (aka Iguleder and Dima) and Jemimah
http://www.dimakrasner.com/drupal/node/7

The next Puppys are likely to be 5.3.3
Wary and Racy
and then Saluki

By then cheap ARM motherboards (Raspberry Pi is still our best bet) will be freely available
and that is when we can evaluate Igu's solution
and Woof2 on ARM

So for Puppy 6 (also available in 64bit and x86)
we can aim for multiprocessor Puppy . . .

zomzilla · #18 Post by **zomzilla** » Sat 11 Feb 2012, 13:40

this all looks very promising

i'm giving the roar-ng a go and it seems to be working ok

i have just a couple questions that you may be able to answer:
1) will puppy6 have a system to update packages?
2) will you be ditching JWM in favour of something more maintained?

EDIT

oh; and what do you think about making it a puppy based puppy which can use .deb .rpm arch packages etc; all the converters exist...

Lobster · #19 Post by **Lobster** » Thu 16 Feb 2012, 16:14

1) will puppy6 have a system to update packages?

maybe
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=75989

2) will you be ditching JWM in favour of something more maintained?

XFCE is being used by Saluki, there is a fork of JWM
http://uwm.sourceforge.net/
which is being maintained . . .

I think PARM is radical enough to be Puppy 6
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PARM

Hotdog · #20 Post by **Hotdog** » Wed 07 Mar 2012, 19:07

I began with Puppy 5.1.1 then moved to 5.2.8. It has become my OS of choice replacing CentOS on both the desktop and laptop. My installations have grown large with addons which have been easy to install and fast to run. My hardware isn't ancient, but neither is it close to the latest, either. I am a happy Puppy user.

My next Puppy won't require that I drastically upgrade or replace any hardware. But, if I do upgrade, Puppy will like his new home and really run like the wind.

He will not require that all my applications be reinstalled from scratch. It would be acceptable to restore from backup with something like Clonezilla.

My next Puppy won't dictate that every six months he has to be swapped out for a new version that may or may not support a favored application. That was my reason for moving from Fedora to CentOS.

Maybe Puppy didn't propose to become a full-blown distribution. But, for some of us it did - and a really good one. However it goes from here, we are grateful to all who have shared their efforts with the rest of us.

If future development does not match my hopes for Puppy, it still would not be reason to jump ship. I'd continue to use what I have, 5.2.8, until either my hardware fails or until there are favored applications that will not run on my Puppy. Then I would be willing to start from scratch with a new Puppy.

darkcity · #21 Post by **darkcity** » Thu 08 Mar 2012, 12:26

there's not much info on UWM. Is JWM unmaintained? it had an update last year.

The most important for me is for JWM to add 'Configurable mouse bindings'. otherwise its a no-no for inkscape ; -)

Aitch · #22 Post by **Aitch** » Thu 08 Mar 2012, 16:12

darkcity

Good job on the wikka

http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyVersionIndex

- the clear, clean layout you have created, and content belie the efforts you've made - many thanks!

Puppy development seems poised for a new direction....good work Igu/Jemimah/playdayz/01micko and others

A development that will have multiprocessor, himem, improved package management, and arm capability is certainly leaping forward in puppy development thinking - please don't neglect SCSI capability for the kernel....as slacko is our only modern SCSI-friendly puppy

Aitch

darkcity · #23 Post by **darkcity** » Thu 08 Mar 2012, 18:29

Aitch wrote:darkcity

Good job on the wikka

http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyVersionIndex

- the clear, clean layout you have created, and content belie the efforts you've made - many thanks!

Your welcome, Lobster and CoolPup doing good things as well. Setting the information free. More editors and correctors always welcome http://puppylinux.org/wikka/WikiIndex

Atle · #24 Post by **Atle** » Fri 09 Mar 2012, 19:59

Could i be right if I assume that non .PET and.SFS packages like the ones for Lupu and Slacko, would have a better chance of working if they where based on a distro with even less arms and legs than Puppy?

Maybe lets say Slitaz? They have more than 3000 packages in their repo and Slitaz as its small, I believe its not going to keep on with this dependency requirements, whereas speaking for my self, I am dead tired of downloading a small package like Amsn, and end up with a large number of dependencies and often a program that will not start or run...

I can not believe I would be the only one feeling this is a bit weird, as one can simply not control or influence on these large distro's.

With Slitaz on can. Slitas is only 35Mb "big, so I guess it should be possible to try to make Slitaz repo the Puppy 6 repo and all that not working or missing this or that, could be gone once and for all?

I am not the right person to say that its like this or that. I just base it on some simple logic.

I suspect that the good folks at Slitaz, could be a great long term partner for Puppy, and that there is no conflict in that...

Today you can not change or invoke on the Ubuntu Lucid or the Slackware community as Puppy is small and just hanging on to them... Tomorrow there could be big time growth for BOTH Puppy and Slitaz if joined hands and made things work visa versa...

Imagine having a repo that you can talk to??????

There is another thread where I go deeper into this...

Also there is some information about their package system =receipt]here

darkcity · #25 Post by **darkcity** » Sat 10 Mar 2012, 12:33

I don't know why not slitaz - presumably it would be possible to use woof with Slitaz

Problems of package management are discussed in depth here-
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=75383

maybe add your thoughts . . .

Atle · #26 Post by **Atle** » Sat 10 Mar 2012, 13:36

Hi Darkcity...

I am a nobody when it comes to programming or understanding of packages, but I do understand that if a distro is less complex than Puppy, as Slitaz is, is more likely to have a repo that gives success on each install:-)

Thanks for the link. I could not make much out of the discussion, apart from a very small majority, wants a non backward compatible new standard, and that makes more sense to me.

Lobster · #27 Post by **Lobster** » Sun 18 Mar 2012, 07:42

I am a nobody

Me too.

Without the dogged determination of our developers, testers and users,
we are just another money making scam.

We are Puppy. We have fun.

Puppy has grown. The needs of nobody and everybody are increasingly complex. Users expect more. Developers need more support and testers. Wiki needs updating. Graphics always welcome, tutorials, videos need a Youtubing. Servers need a hosting. Nobody is going to hold your hand. Do . . . and it gets done.
Noobs need a buddy and so on . . .

New directions are all present. Puppy is still more fun that a barrel full of . . . puppies

The direction very much comes from the developers and suggestions of what is feasible is dependent on an understanding of what is possible and what users require.

All our developers are users too. They deserve as much fun as the next dog.

I was very pleased to hear on Barry's blog, that he is looking at Igus unique and revolutionary alternative to woof2.
http://www.dimakrasner.com/drupal/node/8
Some of us are aware that Puppy will have to survive in a world where tablets are a norm rather than a prescription.

Touch screens, they be a coming . . .

Woof 2 and igus methodology (I am assuming - not yet tried) allows us to create a base Puppy in a few hours - (or in my case possibly longer)
The testing and refinement takes longer.

We have:

Puppy x86
Puppy x86 64 bit
and soon Puppy ARM (and for the future Puppy Mips - Puppy Dragon maybe)
The Dragon chip is being created in China based on Mips.

These Puppy's now and future can be built with
t2 (commonly 'Puppy in Puppy'), Debian, Slackware and RPM bases
http://puppylinux.org/wikka/PuppyVersionIndex

However there is more than just multi-CPU or distro binaries to consider
There is touch enabled icons for the future tablet.
The Shuttleworth Express has already unified behind Unity.
http://www.mytabletlife.com/2010/10/15/ ... n-tablets/
However I believe Ubuntu is not a fan of fun. They are seriously
competing to be THE only penguin. It is a vision of sorts.

Is not Puppy. We welcome the big dogs. Use what works.
Even use Windows Hate (or 8 is it?) if you must.

Coming 2013 - possible early pre-alpha release late 2012
We may need to be Android compatible too . . .
So many possibilities. Are we having fun yet?

Slacko contains icons, Quirky, Wary, Racy, Lucid
Icons - we also can have up to 8 (I think it is) virtual screens.

With Puppy, everything is moving towards Puppy 6
It takes longer to get it just right. More is possible.

Puppy is owned by nobody.
It is answerable to no one.
Our developers, testers and helpers are independently minded
and self financed.
Our [non existent] committees are all busy designing camels and calling them horses.

You have enjoyed Puppy in the past. You are using Puppy now. Fun is in the future too.

Puppy 6 is coming . . . do you know what to expect? Nobody does . . .
Woof Woof

Puppy Linux
Reinventing the OS from Oz

#28 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Sun 18 Mar 2012, 11:22

Lobster wrote: I was very pleased to hear on Barry's blog, that he is looking at Igus unique and revolutionary alternative to woof2.
http://www.dimakrasner.com/drupal/node/8
Some of us are aware that Puppy will have to survive in a world where tablets are a norm rather than a prescription.

Hi Lobster I read that link you posted, it sounded like a guy with a mission, but he didn't come across very positive, If he wants to fork it fine, it was done before with grafpup, also he said it would be impossible to have a gtk3 puppy due to gtkdialog, well I've prove with 2.14x GTK3 version that gtk3 can be added to gtk2 and it only increases the iso by around 3MB, heck 2.14X has gtk1,gt2,gtk3 and its still around 130MB iso.
He also really put down a lot of Barry's hard work on woof, He's not understanding that woof is breaking edge software and its 100% the way that Barry wanted, If he wants to make it different and easier fine, but really these no need to stomp on Barry's work like that. Its always easier to change and complain after someone develops it first.
He even put down the package manager compression, well I've seen other compressions used like tar.bz2. But Xarchive is useless with large tar.bz2 files, sometimes it takes hours to extract sources. I've always liked the package manager, it installs and uninstalls? what else do you need? lol
ttuuxxx

Jim1911 · #29 Post by **Jim1911** » Sun 18 Mar 2012, 12:57

Barry said "I am not inclined to take on bringing an x86 (or x86_64) Precise Puppy to release status, it is just too much work, and I am going to get overloaded." However, he has done some development with Woof and even has it booting.

I hope that someone will pick up on Precise Puppy and goto release with two versions (x86 & x86_64). This could be a great start for Puppy 6.

Thanks,
Jim

#30 Post by **ttuuxxx** » Sun 18 Mar 2012, 14:00

For puppy 6 I would like to see it Debian based without all the extra gnome libs, really if you compare puppy 4 to puppy 5 you'll see a crap load off lib creep, There could always be an extra sfs for all the extra gnome libs, I just would like to see it lean and mean, if it causes a few stability issues, then we simply recompile the broken libs, but I highly believe we could figure it out very quickly

, I more for a puppy release that has the option to use the debian repo, but if a user choose to use the repo, they first should be forced install a "Debian Upgrade Pet" that installs all those extra gnome libs and the ones that were replaced due to unstable results. Simple, I can't say when I ran dpup or upup I ever really used debian/ubuntu repo but still had a whack of libs that were not needed and added bloat and memory resources. I Just compile what I need, usually 90% of the time it comes out smaller due to less libs being as deps.
I look at it this way if we can shave 5-10MB+/- off a iso why not?
ttuuxxx

tronkel · #31 Post by **tronkel** » Sun 18 Mar 2012, 14:26

ttuuxxx wrote:

I look at it this way if we can shave 5-10MB+/- off a iso why not?

Take it further!

Why not do something similar to Arch Linux and only provide a core system to which you add only the stuff you want/need? The core doesn't even have a desktop. Arch Linux has done extremely well with this approach - but it's main afficionados are the techie types.

In the case of Puppy though, adding in the extra stuff should be made easier than it would be with Arch. The main desktop and network modules would be provided via the internet in the form of sfs modules - pre-configured and ready to go - just plug them in. Same for the browser.

Each developer would be in charge of his own module which would plug in to the same core as the other developers.

So that's five modules that would need a developer apiece:
Core, Network, Desktop, Video and Browser.

Other modules would be necessary as well, but these five should take care of a minimum working installation.

greengeek · #32 Post by **greengeek** » Fri 23 Mar 2012, 09:30

tronkel wrote: So that's five modules that would need a developer apiece:
Core, Network, Desktop, Video and Browser.

Are drivers always part of the core? I have always been confused about what zdrv is. Is it possible to have a small, stable, tight core that is capable of automatically "pulling in" drivers (or requesting what it doesn't already have..) on a system that has new versions of hardware?

If the "driver section" was another one of the modules it could make hardware compatibility and portability easier perhaps?

greengeek · #33 Post by **greengeek** » Sat 24 Mar 2012, 18:50

.
Puppy 6 and modularity? Great idea! Sorry for my usual longwinded blah, but here goes...

What I would most like to see for Puppy 6 is that it be platform independent as much as possible. ie: that it looks and behaves quite similarly whether you use it on a desktop PC, a laptop, a netbook or a tablet or on a Raspberry Pi.

This means that it needs a modular structure with a simple core, and a series of add-on modules that tailor it to the hardware it is running on. In a way this is the same sort of approach that Puppy has used with the “Wizard

tronkel · #34 Post by **tronkel** » Fri 30 Mar 2012, 19:14

@greengeek

Yes indeed, you could look at it like this:

Puppy = Core + A Collection of GUI Wizards
= Core + CGW as an abbreviation

There's no point in providing just a core and then saying to the user "go and install your own stuff" a la Arch Linux. Puppy needs to be fundamentally friendlier than that. There needs to be a friendly "welcome-screen" included along with the core, that points the user towards these wizard options .

This sort of welcome-screen approach has already been used in, amongst others Puppy Lucid, but I don't recall seeing it used on top of a bare bones core Puppy.

Also, as greengeek says, many of these "wizards" already exist anyway - they only need to be pulled together under a nice friendly front-end to make accessing them simple and obvious to inexperienced users who are doing an initial set-up of their Puppy system(s).

Good SW engineers, project leaders and designers think modular - so such use of wizards and sfs files would encourage this sort of approach right from the concept/design stage.

It's like starting an oil painting. The first brush stroke actually defines the final brush stroke. Make a mistake with the first stroke and you may never get to the final one without having to tear the thing up and then having to start from scratch. LOL it's like dejavu all over again!

The zdrv is simply another sfs module that contains extra drivers. The developer has the choice of building his system with this being either, an entirely separate module or, as an alternative, being included with the main pup.sfs module. These installable kernel modules would sometimes need to be recompiled to match a given kernel. If the core changes to a different kernel, then an updated zdrv.sfs would be needed with recompiled drivers.

This also leads to an interesting concept. I wonder if an updated kernel itself might be supplied in the form of an sfs file, to which the equivalent zdrv.sfs would also need to correspond.

jemimah · #35 Post by **jemimah** » Fri 30 Mar 2012, 19:47

Saluki is pretty much there now.

Core and apps are in separate sfses.

The iso is not a barebones ISO, thus the user can see the potential. However, you can get a barebones iso easily by removing the applications sfs.

The PPM is enhanced and polished.

Saluki custom builder is not a remastering tool - it's more like Unleashed on steroids. You can rebuild the applications sfs with only applications you want. You can also install the kernel of your choice and even cut it down to only drivers you need. Dependencies are checked and automatically downloaded.

Printing is modular. Either install the all-in-one sfs or install just the drivers you need from pets.

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Puppy 6

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