The time now is Fri 20 Apr 2018, 18:50
All times are UTC - 4 |
Author |
Message |
RetroTechGuy

Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Posts: 2849 Location: USA
|
Posted: Fri 27 Dec 2013, 14:38 Post subject:
|
|
Colonel Panic wrote: | Maybe the answer is to use the Firefox ESR series instead of the latest mainstream ones? |
When I saw "ESR", I thought that meant that Eric Raymond had patched one together....
If he did, it would likely work well.
_________________ Add swapfile
WellMinded Search
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
mikeb

Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 11100
|
Posted: Fri 27 Dec 2013, 14:50 Post subject:
|
|
Quote: | and FF is apparently initiating a pile of java crap, |
java or javascript?...if it is java that is the worst when it comes to memory swallowing.... it would be the webstarter doing it... I have java but avoid enabling the plugin for that reason.
Actually my reason for first trying firefox was that IE caused 98 to slow to a crawl and need regular reboots....especially if a bookmark or 2 was made...... IE removal tool fixed that and FF was the replacement. Some do not realise that IE is not really a browser but an ugly extension to the desktop so when it screws up so does the system...also why viruses have an easy time getting into the machine.
Removing IE made the machine happy and the bonus was being free from viruses ever since ..ok msn messenger and outlook needed to go as well to get that immunity.
As it happens firefox on windows chalks up 50-150MB for me...again an older version.
mike
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
RetroTechGuy

Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Posts: 2849 Location: USA
|
Posted: Fri 27 Dec 2013, 14:51 Post subject:
|
|
I had 6 tabs open (including the about.memory). I closed FF, I cleared the un-released RAM (I think it was Bruce who came up with a process to sync, and purge), opened FF and restored the 6 tabs. At at over 500 MB without doing anything at all yet... It looks like this:
Code: | Main Process
Explicit Allocations
148.46 MB (100.0%) -- explicit
├───49.32 MB (33.22%) -- js-non-window
│ ├──39.36 MB (26.51%) -- zones
│ │ ├──30.90 MB (20.81%) -- zone(0xaf827800)
│ │ │ ├──12.79 MB (08.62%) ++ (199 tiny)
│ │ │ ├──11.11 MB (07.49%) ── unused-gc-things
│ │ │ └───7.00 MB (04.71%) -- strings
│ │ │ ├──5.33 MB (03.59%) -- normal
│ │ │ │ ├──3.15 MB (02.12%) ── malloc-heap
│ │ │ │ └──2.18 MB (01.47%) ── gc-heap
│ │ │ └──1.67 MB (01.12%) ++ (2 tiny)
│ │ ├───8.30 MB (05.59%) -- zone(0xb1d74000)
│ │ │ ├──7.80 MB (05.25%) -- strings
│ │ │ │ ├──6.77 MB (04.56%) -- normal
│ │ │ │ │ ├──5.32 MB (03.59%) ── malloc-heap
│ │ │ │ │ └──1.45 MB (00.98%) ── gc-heap
│ │ │ │ └──1.03 MB (00.69%) ++ (2 tiny)
│ │ │ └──0.50 MB (00.34%) ++ (4 tiny)
│ │ └───0.16 MB (00.11%) ++ zone(0xaf827400)
│ ├───8.89 MB (05.99%) -- runtime
│ │ ├──3.37 MB (02.27%) ── script-data
│ │ ├──3.00 MB (02.02%) ── atoms-table
│ │ ├──2.03 MB (01.37%) ── script-sources
│ │ └──0.49 MB (00.33%) ++ (9 tiny)
│ └───1.07 MB (00.72%) ++ gc-heap
├───23.95 MB (16.13%) ── heap-unclassified
├───22.20 MB (14.95%) -- window-objects
│ ├───5.11 MB (03.44%) -- top(chrome://browser/content/browser.xul, id=3)
│ │ ├──4.72 MB (03.18%) -- active
│ │ │ ├──4.63 MB (03.12%) -- window(chrome://browser/content/browser.xul)
│ │ │ │ ├──2.55 MB (01.71%) ++ (4 tiny)
│ │ │ │ └──2.08 MB (01.40%) ++ js-compartment([System Principal], about:blank)
│ │ │ └──0.09 MB (00.06%) ++ window(about:blank)
│ │ └──0.39 MB (00.26%) ++ js-zone(0xad938400)
│ ├───3.58 MB (02.41%) -- top(http://www.google.com/cse?cx=015995643981050743583%3Aabvzbibgzxo&q=Firefox+ESR&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A0&siteurl=www.wellminded.com%2Fpuppy%2Fpupsearch.html&ref=www.murga-linux.com%2Fpuppy%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D746658&ss=214j45796j2#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=Firefox%20ESR&gsc.page=1, id=22)
│ │ ├──3.23 MB (02.18%) -- active/window(http://www.google.com/cse?cx=015995643981050743583%3Aabvzbibgzxo&q=Firefox+ESR&sa=Search&cof=FORID%3A0&siteurl=www.wellminded.com%2Fpuppy%2Fpupsearch.html&ref=www.murga-linux.com%2Fpuppy%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D746658&ss=214j45796j2#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=Firefox%20ESR&gsc.page=1)
│ │ │ ├──2.05 MB (01.38%) -- layout
│ │ │ │ ├──1.85 MB (01.25%) ── style-sets
│ │ │ │ └──0.19 MB (00.13%) ++ (7 tiny)
│ │ │ └──1.19 MB (00.80%) ++ (4 tiny)
│ │ └──0.35 MB (00.24%) ++ js-zone(0xa61d1000)
│ ├───3.08 MB (02.08%) -- top(http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=78103&start=45, id=20)
│ │ ├──3.01 MB (02.03%) -- active/window(http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=78103&start=45)
│ │ │ ├──2.45 MB (01.65%) -- layout
│ │ │ │ ├──1.84 MB (01.24%) ── style-sets
│ │ │ │ └──0.61 MB (00.41%) ++ (7 tiny)
│ │ │ └──0.56 MB (00.38%) ++ (4 tiny)
│ │ └──0.07 MB (00.05%) ++ js-zone(0xa61a9800)
│ ├───3.02 MB (02.03%) -- top(http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=72177&start=180, id=26)
│ │ ├──2.93 MB (01.97%) -- active/window(http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=72177&start=180)
│ │ │ ├──2.39 MB (01.61%) -- layout
│ │ │ │ ├──1.84 MB (01.24%) ── style-sets
│ │ │ │ └──0.55 MB (00.37%) ++ (7 tiny)
│ │ │ └──0.54 MB (00.36%) ++ (4 tiny)
│ │ └──0.09 MB (00.06%) ++ js-zone(0xa635b000)
│ ├───2.89 MB (01.95%) -- top(http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/search.php?search_id=egosearch, id=8)
│ │ ├──2.81 MB (01.89%) -- active/window(http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/search.php?search_id=egosearch)
│ │ │ ├──2.23 MB (01.50%) -- layout
│ │ │ │ ├──1.84 MB (01.24%) ── style-sets
│ │ │ │ └──0.39 MB (00.26%) ++ (7 tiny)
│ │ │ └──0.58 MB (00.39%) ++ (3 tiny)
│ │ └──0.08 MB (00.06%) ++ js-zone(0xa90cf400)
│ ├───2.33 MB (01.57%) -- top(http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Archpup, id=24)
│ │ ├──2.24 MB (01.51%) -- active/window(http://puppylinux.org/wikka/Archpup)
│ │ │ ├──1.94 MB (01.31%) -- layout
│ │ │ │ ├──1.82 MB (01.23%) ── style-sets
│ │ │ │ └──0.12 MB (00.08%) ++ (7 tiny)
│ │ │ └──0.30 MB (00.20%) ++ (4 tiny)
│ │ └──0.09 MB (00.06%) ++ js-zone(0xa6330400)
│ └───2.19 MB (01.48%) ++ (4 tiny)
├───16.39 MB (11.04%) -- add-ons
│ ├──13.92 MB (09.38%) -- {d10d0bf8-f5b5-c8b4-a8b2-2b9879e08c5d}
│ │ ├──13.90 MB (09.37%) -- js-non-window/zones/zone(0xaf827800)/compartment([System Principal], jar:file:///root/.mozilla/firefox/nunzpnku.default/extensions/%7Bd10d0bf8-f5b5-c8b4-a8b2-2b9879e08c5d%7D.xpi!/bootstrap.js (from: resource://gre/modules/XPIProvider.jsm:3913))
│ │ │ ├───9.63 MB (06.49%) -- objects
│ │ │ │ ├──5.82 MB (03.92%) -- gc-heap
│ │ │ │ │ ├──3.47 MB (02.33%) ── dense-array
│ │ │ │ │ ├──2.23 MB (01.50%) ── ordinary
│ │ │ │ │ └──0.12 MB (00.08%) ++ (2 tiny)
│ │ │ │ ├──3.81 MB (02.57%) -- malloc-heap
│ │ │ │ │ ├──3.26 MB (02.20%) ── slots
│ │ │ │ │ └──0.55 MB (00.37%) ── elements/non-asm.js
│ │ │ │ └──0.00 MB (00.00%) ── non-heap/code/asm.js
│ │ │ ├───4.15 MB (02.80%) -- shapes
│ │ │ │ ├──3.14 MB (02.12%) -- gc-heap
│ │ │ │ │ ├──2.93 MB (01.97%) ── dict
│ │ │ │ │ └──0.21 MB (00.14%) ++ (2 tiny)
│ │ │ │ └──1.01 MB (00.68%) ++ malloc-heap
│ │ │ └───0.12 MB (00.08%) ++ (4 tiny)
│ │ └───0.02 MB (00.01%) ── dom/non-window-global?!/orphan-nodes
│ ├───1.66 MB (01.12%) ++ {b9db16a4-6edc-47ec-a1f4-b86292ed211d}/js-non-window/zones/zone(0xaf827800)
│ └───0.80 MB (00.54%) ++ (2 tiny)
├────9.50 MB (06.40%) -- heap-overhead
│ ├──6.19 MB (04.17%) ── waste
│ ├──3.31 MB (02.23%) ── page-cache
│ └──0.00 MB (00.00%) ── bookkeeping
├────7.65 MB (05.15%) -- layout
│ ├──7.42 MB (05.00%) ── style-sheet-service
│ └──0.23 MB (00.15%) ── style-sheet-cache
├────6.12 MB (04.12%) -- storage
│ ├──4.84 MB (03.26%) -- sqlite
│ │ ├──3.17 MB (02.14%) -- places.sqlite
│ │ │ ├──3.02 MB (02.03%) ── cache-used [2]
│ │ │ └──0.16 MB (00.11%) ++ (2 tiny)
│ │ └──1.67 MB (01.12%) ++ (6 tiny)
│ └──1.28 MB (00.86%) ++ prefix-set
├────5.56 MB (03.74%) -- workers/workers()
│ ├──2.88 MB (01.94%) -- worker(resource://gre/modules/PageThumbsWorker.js, 0x9e43d800)
│ │ ├──1.50 MB (01.01%) ++ gc-heap
│ │ └──1.37 MB (00.92%) ++ (4 tiny)
│ └──2.68 MB (01.81%) ++ (2 tiny)
├────4.01 MB (02.70%) ++ (14 tiny)
├────1.91 MB (01.29%) ── atom-tables
└────1.86 MB (01.25%) -- startup-cache
├──1.86 MB (01.25%) ── mapping
└──0.00 MB (00.00%) ── data
Other Measurements
25.75 MB (100.0%) -- decommitted
├──22.79 MB (88.52%) ── js-non-window/gc-heap/decommitted-arenas
└───2.96 MB (11.48%) -- workers/workers()
├──1.48 MB (05.73%) ── worker(resource:///modules/sessionstore/SessionWorker.js, 0xaf53cc00)/gc-heap/decommitted-arenas
├──1.47 MB (05.72%) ── worker(resource://gre/modules/osfile/osfile_async_worker.js, 0xada0b800)/gc-heap/decommitted-arenas
└──0.01 MB (00.03%) ── worker(resource://gre/modules/PageThumbsWorker.js, 0x9e43d800)/gc-heap/decommitted-arenas
71.73 MB (100.0%) -- js-main-runtime
├──33.29 MB (46.41%) -- compartments
│ ├──17.52 MB (24.43%) -- objects
│ │ ├──11.01 MB (15.35%) -- gc-heap
│ │ │ ├───3.72 MB (05.18%) ── dense-array
│ │ │ ├───3.69 MB (05.14%) ── ordinary
│ │ │ ├───3.45 MB (04.81%) ── function
│ │ │ └───0.16 MB (00.22%) ── cross-compartment-wrapper
│ │ ├───6.51 MB (09.08%) -- malloc-heap
│ │ │ ├──4.96 MB (06.91%) ── slots
│ │ │ ├──1.52 MB (02.12%) ── elements/non-asm.js
│ │ │ └──0.04 MB (00.05%) ── regexp-statics
│ │ └───0.00 MB (00.00%) ── non-heap/code/asm.js
│ ├──13.18 MB (18.38%) -- shapes
│ │ ├───8.46 MB (11.79%) -- gc-heap
│ │ │ ├──3.34 MB (04.66%) ── dict
│ │ │ ├──3.01 MB (04.19%) -- tree
│ │ │ │ ├──2.65 MB (03.70%) ── global-parented
│ │ │ │ └──0.36 MB (00.50%) ── non-global-parented
│ │ │ └──2.11 MB (02.94%) ── base
│ │ └───4.72 MB (06.59%) -- malloc-heap
│ │ ├──3.05 MB (04.25%) ── compartment-tables
│ │ ├──0.99 MB (01.38%) ── dict-tables
│ │ └──0.69 MB (00.96%) ++ (2 tiny)
│ ├───2.11 MB (02.95%) -- scripts
│ │ ├──1.76 MB (02.46%) ── gc-heap
│ │ └──0.35 MB (00.49%) ── malloc-heap/data
│ └───0.47 MB (00.66%) ++ (6 tiny)
├──28.48 MB (39.70%) -- zones
│ ├──15.12 MB (21.08%) -- strings
│ │ ├──12.37 MB (17.25%) -- normal
│ │ │ ├───8.71 MB (12.14%) ── malloc-heap
│ │ │ └───3.66 MB (05.11%) ── gc-heap
│ │ ├───1.87 MB (02.60%) ── short/gc-heap
│ │ └───0.88 MB (01.22%) ++ notable
│ ├──12.74 MB (17.77%) ── unused-gc-things
│ └───0.62 MB (00.86%) ++ (4 tiny)
├───8.89 MB (12.40%) ── runtime
└───1.07 MB (01.49%) -- gc-heap
├──1.00 MB (01.39%) ── chunk-admin
└──0.07 MB (00.09%) ++ (2 tiny)
267 (100.0%) -- js-main-runtime-compartments
├──258 (96.63%) -- system
│ ├──251 (94.01%) ++ (249 tiny)
│ └────7 (02.62%) ── [System Principal], inProcessTabChildGlobal?ownedBy=chrome://browser/content/browser.xul [7]
└────9 (03.37%) ++ user
41.21 MB (100.0%) -- js-main-runtime-gc-heap-committed
├──28.40 MB (68.91%) -- used
│ ├──27.20 MB (66.01%) ── gc-things
│ ├───1.00 MB (02.43%) ── chunk-admin
│ └───0.19 MB (00.47%) ── arena-admin
└──12.81 MB (31.09%) -- unused
├──12.74 MB (30.93%) ── gc-things
└───0.07 MB (00.16%) ++ (2 tiny)
81 (100.0%) -- message-manager
└──81 (100.0%) -- referent
├──39 (48.15%) -- parent-process-manager
│ ├──39 (48.15%) ── strong
│ └───0 (00.00%) ++ weak
├──37 (45.68%) -- global-manager
│ ├──37 (45.68%) ── strong
│ └───0 (00.00%) ++ weak
└───5 (06.17%) -- child-process-manager
├──5 (06.17%) ── strong
└──0 (00.00%) ++ weak
635 (100.0%) -- observer-service
└──635 (100.0%) -- referent
├──434 (68.35%) ── strong
└──201 (31.65%) -- weak
├──199 (31.34%) ── alive
└────2 (00.31%) ── dead
380 (100.0%) -- preference-service
└──380 (100.0%) -- referent
├──308 (81.05%) ── strong
└───72 (18.95%) -- weak
├──72 (18.95%) ── alive
└───0 (00.00%) ── dead
16.18 MB (100.0%) -- window-objects
├──13.09 MB (80.89%) -- layout
│ ├───9.85 MB (60.89%) ── style-sets
│ ├───1.12 MB (06.91%) ── pres-shell
│ ├───1.05 MB (06.49%) ── frames
│ ├───0.45 MB (02.79%) ── style-contexts
│ ├───0.32 MB (01.95%) ++ (3 tiny)
│ └───0.30 MB (01.86%) ── text-runs
├───2.30 MB (14.24%) -- dom
│ ├──1.60 MB (09.89%) ── element-nodes
│ ├──0.37 MB (02.31%) ── text-nodes
│ ├──0.20 MB (01.26%) ── other
│ └──0.13 MB (00.78%) ++ (4 tiny)
├───0.79 MB (04.86%) ── style-sheets
└───0.00 MB (00.01%) ── property-tables
0.33 MB ── canvas-2d-pixels
0.56 MB ── gfx-surface-image
2.27 MB ── gfx-surface-xlib
0.00 MB ── gfx-textures
0 ── ghost-windows
92.29 MB ── heap-allocated
101.73 MB ── heap-committed
8.39% ── heap-overhead-ratio
0 ── host-object-urls
0.56 MB ── images-content-used-uncompressed
64.00 MB ── js-main-runtime-gc-heap
0.61 MB ── js-main-runtime-temporary-peak
182 ── page-faults-hard
81,512 ── page-faults-soft
182.38 MB ── resident
173.21 MB ── resident-unique
4.84 MB ── storage-sqlite
511.04 MB ── vsize |
_________________ Add swapfile
WellMinded Search
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
mikeb

Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 11100
|
Posted: Fri 27 Dec 2013, 14:58 Post subject:
|
|
Well thats fun reading
Do you have a link to a site that threatens blocking old browsers...would like to test spoofing...
mike
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
RetroTechGuy

Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Posts: 2849 Location: USA
|
Posted: Fri 27 Dec 2013, 15:14 Post subject:
|
|
mikeb wrote: | Well thats fun reading
Do you have a link to a site that threatens blocking old browsers...would like to test spoofing...
mike |
Can't remember right now. Pretty sure that one of them was Facebook.
(I spent several hours playing with different browsers, and settings the other day -- all kind of a fog... )
_________________ Add swapfile
WellMinded Search
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
mikeb

Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 11100
|
Posted: Fri 27 Dec 2013, 15:29 Post subject:
|
|
Hmm not a sniff on facebook.... if you happen to remember another just pop it up here
mike
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
mcewanw
Joined: 16 Aug 2007 Posts: 3194 Location: New Zealand
|
Posted: Fri 27 Dec 2013, 18:05 Post subject:
freeupram and firefox cache etc |
|
It seems to me from what is being reported that firefox uses different amounts of resident RAM depending on the total system RAM available. Htop gives different readings than top, I think, because it tries to ignore buffers and cache in its calculations. It seems to report the resident RAM usage (which is probably the important one in terms of filling up physical RAM) rather then virtual RAM usage.
If anyone else wants to free up RAM and firefox cache and so on, and read more about this in general, the following old threads contain many details:
HOWTO free up RAM of reserved cache and buffers space and howto free up swap space:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=529914&search_id=825226293#529914
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=313181#313181
How to clear firefox/seamonkey cache etc (the script may need slightly modified depending where your firefox/seamonkey profile is:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=505761#505761
_________________ SomeOfMyWork with links:
dCoreDog
weX, scrox, Precord, Premote, fokSyfEyeR, xhippo-mod, flite_hts_pet
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
disciple
Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 6781 Location: Auckland, New Zealand
|
Posted: Fri 27 Dec 2013, 21:31 Post subject:
|
|
Quote: | it reports that every Facebook tab uses between 20 and 25 MB... talk about being an absolute "pig" |
I don't use anything like Facebook, but my brother uses it, and it is downright evil. I haven't payed close attention to its memory usage, as memory isn't usually a problem for me with 1GB ram and 512MB swap (using seamonkey), but I think it spawns all sorts of javascript rubbish which runs continuously and eats up my CPU.
_________________ If you have or know of a good gtkdialog application, please post a link here
Classic Puppy quotes
ROOT FOREVER
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
Colonel Panic

Joined: 16 Sep 2006 Posts: 1968
|
Posted: Sat 28 Dec 2013, 08:55 Post subject:
|
|
RetroTechGuy wrote: | When I saw "ESR", I thought that meant that Eric Raymond had patched one together....  |
Nope, Extended Support Release I think it's worth considering.
RetroTechGuy wrote: | If he did, it would likely work well.  |
Yeah, maybe. He seems to be keeping a low profile lately (or maybe it's because I don't read the same techie columns I once did).
_________________ Acer Aspire M1610 (Core 2 Duo, 2.3 GHz), 3 GB of RAM, 320 GB hard drive running Devuan 2.0.0 Beta, Slackel 7.0 Openbox, Bunsen Labs Deuterium, VLocity 7.2 Final, X-Slacko 4.4, Ubuntu 16.04 LTS Budgie,Stella 6.8 and Gecko Mate (rolling edition).
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
Eathray

Joined: 06 Sep 2009 Posts: 724
|
Posted: Sat 28 Dec 2013, 14:47 Post subject:
|
|
I was going to note in the title that this add-on was no longer supported... or perhaps say so in a sub-title, but it looks like you guys are making use of the thread...
Should I leave it alone?
Also, I did edit that the add-on is still available at Softpedia in the first post.
I'm reading along... I have the add-on installed, but it's needing some tweaking... I don't know if it's permanently broke via Google/Youtube, or just needs to be played with. Maybe you all could advise.
Eathray
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
mikeb

Joined: 23 Nov 2006 Posts: 11100
|
Posted: Sat 28 Dec 2013, 15:51 Post subject:
|
|
Quote: | I'm reading along... I have the add-on installed, but it's needing some tweaking... I don't know if it's permanently broke via Google/Youtube, or just needs to be played with. Maybe you all could advise. |
Its permanent... the guy got some heavy pressure from google to pack it in so he did. Shame as it was very neat and he was really helpful when I emailed him with a couple of problems...
I hoped to use the info from the greasemonkey script that does still work but the method of obfustication used was beyond my comprehension at least with regard to trying to port it to flasvideoreplacer.
mike
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
RetroTechGuy

Joined: 15 Dec 2009 Posts: 2849 Location: USA
|
Posted: Thu 09 Jan 2014, 00:29 Post subject:
|
|
Rockin'!!
Well, I "fixed" my FF memory problem...
Some friends of the family asked me how they could get rid of an old XP "Media" machine (they had upgraded to a pretty decent Win7 machine).
I said "sure, give it to me". I had forgotten that I had crammed 4 GB in this beast when we patched things for them (it was real light on memory). Pretty smokin', for my collection (3 GHz P4, 4 GB RAM -- 3 GB usable under Lupu). Moved the old Win98 (2.2 GHz, 1 GB RAM) into the "reserve pile"... Suddenly my FF doesn't drag and hang...
Looks like it's again time to go through my pile of junkers, and send some of them "packing"...
And even the XP system seems to work OK, once I get all the excess crap out of it (how many didn't flavors of "toolbars" do you need on a single system).
I Lin'N'Win-ed the beast.
Next to figure out where all the HDD space is being eaten...
_________________ Add swapfile
WellMinded Search
|
Back to top
|
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum You cannot attach files in this forum You can download files in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|