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Collaborating as a team or group for Puppy good
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Sat 01 Dec 2012, 13:15    Post subject: Re: Puppy Linux development.....  

James C wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk7yqlTMvp8


Laughing Right on the money Laughing
We need the "cat-boys" though Crying or Very sad
Then the "proper" versioning platform will be a breeze.

Seriously though, maybe the next "community edition" (if any - now the BK goes to arms Laughing ) can be build on such a platform. Whichever the people that will initiate it, decide to.

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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4090
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec 2012, 14:58    Post subject: Collaboration in Puppyland has great benefit  

There is some very good comments by all here.

Just want to share one view with you. There is a lot of mis-information being presented about Google. Some of us are biased against Microsoft or Google or Oracle or IBM or paid servcies or the moon or ...

But the issue at hand here is NOT to feed the biases but to determine some reasonable methods of collaboration such that multiple people(s) can contribute whatever to a common project. This, I view, is akin to people working together at a conference table on the same project.

So, what we can do in this thread is to identify (or attempt to work together to identify) a reasonable "start" for collaboration on a PUP. It could go so far as having some help in outlining what areas will be covered in the collaboration and where a conferencing site exist that can allow achievement of a common PUP with members able to communicate and achieve in a common framework.

My only offer of Google is that its free, and currently is the fastest Internet provider on the Net with uptimes exceeding even Microsoft-Oracle and matching ATT and IBM's uptime (currently the world leaders)..

This does NOT mean we must use any of them, but, we certainly want stability, availablility and wholesomeness for any effort we start. That's the kind of adulthood we have matured to. Thus, any internet provider or site that provides us what would be a smooth table to work on with the facilities (and maybe the tools) for our PUP objectives would be welcomed. And, none of us should hesitate to contribute because it happens to be hosted at a location we disagree with. Our objective is the PUP(s), the conference table to work on and the team's objective with an eye for easy expansion should the need arise.

So, if there can be started a method for a PUP and that method can be packaged for any other Puppy forum users who would want to collaborate, as well, it gives a common structure, and theme for people working together for common good with reasonable team results...I think

Here to help

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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2406
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Mon 03 Dec 2012, 15:47    Post subject: Re: Collaboration in Puppyland has great benefit  

gcmartin wrote:
Some of us are biased against Microsoft or Google or Oracle or IBM or paid servcies or the moon or .....

This does NOT mean we must use any of them, but, we certainly want stability, availablility and wholesomeness for any effort we start.

In the interests of longterm stability I think it is important to look for a collaborative platform that does not fall prey to what we have seen over the last couple of years.

Lots of valuable Puppy info got lost when the FBI took down MegaUpload. Google and others are coming under greater pressure to "spy and control". Lot's of people have found their valuable data locked up and unable to be accessed.

Free offerings, including Google (microsoft's mortal enemy) are a natural target for corporate and governmental interference. I just think thought should be given to a paid service that is less likely to fall prey to these risks.

Now that Puppy is maturing into a complete desktop offering it is more of a threat to some businesses and I expect there will be more scrutiny and interference of it's future direction. It would be a shame to see innovative Puppy concepts (and I am sure there will be plenty) get locked up in patents etc. I think it is a genuine risk and some of this work should be done out of the public eye.

I pledge $100 to a paid service. (That's NZ dollars, not real money...)
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Tue 04 Dec 2012, 03:11    Post subject: Re: Collaboration in Puppyland has great benefit  

gcmartin wrote:
Puppy forum users who would want to collaborate, as well, it gives a common structure, and theme for people working together for common good with reasonable team results...I think


But that is exactly the issue. Puppy developers and users do not have common views.
When they do they collaborate right from the start (kirl-jamesbond, elroy-gofrey) or later (playdayz-01micko).
A lot also remember what happened to the manager of the last puppy "community edition" so they are skeptical about wider collaborations schemes.
So, first we get the "catboys(girls)" and hopefully they'll use an open collaborative system for their pupplet and accept patches now and then...

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elroy


Joined: 02 Feb 2012
Posts: 374

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 04:03    Post subject:  

A most interesting discussion! I've always thought that if all of the puppy developers could agree to collaborate, that puppy would by far be the best linux distro to date. The only problem is the collaboration part. First off, which distro would it be based upon? That would be the deal-breaker right there (my personal opinion would be Arch). Secondly, which desktop? (another potential deal-breaker. I'd rather see xfce than joewm). That said, I agree that puppy would be better served with a more focused point of reference, and a common repository would be a blessing. Also, version-control/bug-tracking would be a god-send. But puppy isn't designed to be that kind of distro. It is, but it isn't. BK didn't nail it down to one thing in the beginning, and that, in my opinion, is both the strength and weakness of puppy. It's too diverse. It's a great thing in terms of freedom of expression, but it's a terrible thing in terms of leveraging the things it does well. That said, I still find it the best option out there. Case in point: the majority of us have multiple puppy frugal's that we use for a variety of reasons.
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2406
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 04:55    Post subject:  

elroy wrote:
that, in my opinion, is both the strength and weakness of puppy... It's a great thing in terms of freedom of expression, but it's a terrible thing in terms of leveraging the things it does well.

Do you think it could be possible to run a project where a group of devs could hammer out an agreed definition of a "complete" puppy with the features you outlined (standard PPM etc) and develop it in addition to their other pet projects? (so that creativity is not stifled). Or is that asking too much in terms of workload. If the definition and goals were clearly defined at the start it would probably not matter too much if devs came and went as time permitted. And if so, what would be the best forum to achieve the initial consensus and continue it?
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 05:05    Post subject:  

elroy wrote:
A most interesting discussion! I've always thought that if all of the puppy developers could agree to collaborate, that puppy would by far be the best linux distro to date.


What has made Puppy unique is an environment that supports creative individuals building upon the work of other creative individuals..but in their own way. If you want to produce anything of value, the last thing you want to do is make everything a group decision.
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Monsie


Joined: 01 Dec 2011
Posts: 633
Location: Kamloops BC Canada

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 06:10    Post subject: Collaborating as a team or group for Puppy good  

Hi all,

Well, there is certainly lots of collaborative type software and services available...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_collaborative_software and like most software offerings, some of it is shareware, and some of it is freeware...

FusionForge is an open source collaborative offering, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FusionForge and can be found here.

But you know, I can't help but think that for the most part PLDF provides us with what we need... it's a matter of how we choose operate and to what extent we choose to co-operate within the Community.

Just some more food for thought,
Monsie

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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1564

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 08:19    Post subject:  

greengeek wrote:
Do you think it could be possible to run a project where a group of devs could hammer out an agreed definition of a "complete" puppy with the features you outlined (standard PPM etc) and develop it in addition to their other pet projects? (so that creativity is not stifled).

This is not the way it works.
Linux and OSS in general, is a "grassroots" process. People voluntarily join a project that a) looks interesting and b) is inviting.
As easily, they walk away to go home (even ttuuxxx disappeared Surprised ) or do their own take on the same thing (as evident by the number of linux distributions).
You simply can not "force" linux developers together.

The thing with the puppy culture is that although "interesting" it is not "inviting". Instead it promotes a "do it yourself" approach.
There is nothing wrong with this. There are all kinds of distro's out there that can fit almost any requirement.
Puppy fits its own niche both as an OS and as a development approach.
After all Linux Desktop lost its chance (Vista) to become a viable user platform and remained stuck under 1%.
Mobile computing although "linux/BSD"-based, is dominated by Google and Apple with Linux not even in the charts.
So lets put things in prospective when we are making "big plans"...

I just wish for 4-5 competent, available and committed persons to find the same idea appealing and pursue it.
Whichever that idea might be as long as it goes by the name "puppy" Very Happy

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ICPUG

Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 1289
Location: UK

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 09:44    Post subject:  

mavrothal - on this topic you speak wise words!

How often this topic comes around. This is the timeline:

1) Newcomer sees Puppy and is amazed and enthused

2) After going through a few upgrades and spending a little time with Puppy, newcomer realises that Puppy is disjointed from one version to the next and it has some features that need improving - repository; help files; addressing things that Windows does; etc.

3) Not so newcomer now says Puppy would be better if it was coordinated

4) It is pointed out to newcomer that Puppy devs don't want to be coordinated

5) We all have a big discussion trotting out the same arguments for one viewpoint or the other.

6) Newcomer either accepts the situation or gradually disappears from the forum!

I fell into the category that accepted and run multiple pups. That is not to say I disagree that Puppy would be much better if it were coordinated. I just accept it will not happen.

You will not get a coordinated anything if a developer is in charge. They don't have the right people skills. To coordinate to get a really great product you have to satisfy the different needs of developers, testers, users, quality assurance, etc. Then, when you have done this you have to maintain it from one version to the next.

Playdayz is the only guy here (and I include Barry in that) who has gone some way to achieving this. By his own admission he is not a developer, yet he got 01micko to develop and with Shinobar, Whodo, ttuxxx and just about anybody who was anybody on this forum to throw in their specific skillset without anyone getting upset! The result is the (still) amazing Lupu.
Of course, Puppy being Puppy, once Lupu was demoted from being mainstream to derivative there was no continuity to the next version (Slacko, Precise, whatever).

The only other way to get some sort of coordination is the benevolent dictator who has some knowledge of EVERYTHING, not just developing, and does it all themselves from version to version with continuity.

Into that category comes Tazoc. He just quietly looks at what is going on in the forum, picks the bits he thinks are best and produces the amazing Lighthouse Puppy. It has been around for ages and still works roughly the same way as it did in the beginning yet it has slowly morphed through various kernels, 32 bit - 64 bit and added new features, PupControl, sysinfo, etc. as they have become available. Those that crave stability and continuity should really take a peek at Lighthouse.
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rcrsn51


Joined: 05 Sep 2006
Posts: 8906
Location: Stratford, Ontario

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 12:25    Post subject:  

ICPUG wrote:
You will not get a coordinated anything if a developer is in charge. They don't have the right people skills.

This idea has been expressed before in the forum and I have never understood it. It paints the picture of "developers" as being social misfits still living in their parents' basements. There are several active Puppy projects where the team leaders strike me as having excellent people skills.
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 12:32    Post subject:  

ICPUG wrote:


You will not get a coordinated anything if a developer is in charge. They don't have the right people skills. To coordinate to get a really great product you have to satisfy the different needs of developers, testers, users, quality assurance, etc. Then, when you have done this you have to maintain it from one version to the next.

Playdayz is the only guy here (and I include Barry in that) who has gone some way to achieving this. By his own admission he is not a developer, yet he got 01micko to develop and with Shinobar, Whodo, ttuxxx and just about anybody who was anybody on this forum to throw in their specific skillset without anyone getting upset! The result is the (still) amazing Lupu.
Of course, Puppy being Puppy, once Lupu was demoted from being mainstream to derivative there was no continuity to the next version (Slacko, Precise, whatever).

Actually, there have been a number of developers who have been excellent. Pemasu with Dpup Exprimo, for example, who has tirelessly responded to users requests and incorporated numerous applications from puppy programmers into his distro. There are many others as well.
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2406
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 12:51    Post subject:  

I've been amazed at how helpful and committed the devs have been. And how patient (by far the majority of the time...). And not only the devs - lots of talented others beavering away in the background with years of experience in the kennels.

The questions I'd ask would be:

If there was going to be a project how would it be defined?
What would be the best tool for that collaboration?

In some ways I think a strongly structured and collaborative Puppy would be a very difficult project for devs to be involved with because it would involve a dev becoming a slave to other peoples ideas, rather than forging ahead with their own creative baby.

But even if there is no structure, what is the best collaborative medium? And would you want it to be open to all of us, or just the group of devs nutting out an issue?
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 13:07    Post subject:  

greengeek wrote:


But even if there is no structure, what is the best collaborative medium? And would you want it to be open to all of us, or just the group of devs nutting out an issue?


I'm sure that could create an endless debate in itself, with nothing accomplished.
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gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4090
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed 05 Dec 2012, 14:15    Post subject: All of what we say can be structured...simply into a framewo  

in reviewing the offerings everyone is making, I think we are crafting a test collaborative movement which could result in a test PUP which will finalize in a true PUP approach for its distro's base.

Barry does Bones and Woof (this could/should be expanded into a collaboration of more than 1). And we, the community, advance a test approach.

Should we work with TaZoC, 01Micko, JamesBond, Rcrsn51 or who should be Collaborators for a project test. And, if we embark on a "world-wide approach" (which is what this is, are we willing to maintain documentation, not only about what we produce, but also about the advances and pitfalls we experience in working together.

Are we at a maturity-level of PLDF to step-out in investing in such an effort?

Step back a bit...If we look at just what we have already advanced in this thread, we can easily see how to approach this with a reasonably comfortable method of cooperation and achievement.

Looking at all of this from top-down, it is easy to see a path to success! And we wont be thinking outside of the box.

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