Here is the response I got from Dick Smith Electronics (DSE) when I emailed them to explain that they were not correctly informing customers about the restrictive nature of the UEFI and possible maintenance difficulties and loss of resale value:
"Thank you for your feedback
The UEFI is an update to the computers traditional BIOS that had not
changed for many years and needed to be updated.
Dick Smith sells the computers products as supplied by the
manufacturers and do not modify them ourselves.
We do provide the the basic system requirement at the time of sale and
also most manufacturers do provide specifications on their website
Nigel xxxxxxx
Customer Liaison Specialist"
So basically, read the manufacturers website before you go shopping or else it's just too bad. I don't think they are going far enough to educate the customer or explain how much the customer will be affected over the lifetime of the purchase. What happens in a year or two when they need maintenance or want to run Fedora or Android? What's the resale value going to be like? Will these PCs be of any use to someone who is learning Linux programming?
I doubt I'd be buying a PC that requires me to go cap-in-hand to some organisation for an "OS approval certificate". I guess if the "legacy" thingy works ok there may be no problems, but we shall see...
UEFI Boot and Puppy --- is there a noob HowTo?
I have only tested one of our biggest resellers of computers.
Elgiganten.se and not the other chains of resellers so maybe
my info is not complete but what they told me is that the warranty
get ditched if I try to do dual boot install on the computer.
what it means is that I can not take a DVD or USB with me
to the store and test if it allow me to boot even because
they would say they can not risk there is some virus on that DVD/USB
So the only way to find out would be to ask the Press Officer/Information
Service of the Acer or Asus or Dell or HP or whatever company that have
that laptop or desktop made.
One can not trust the resellers to care. They sell them as is.
Elgiganten.se and not the other chains of resellers so maybe
my info is not complete but what they told me is that the warranty
get ditched if I try to do dual boot install on the computer.
what it means is that I can not take a DVD or USB with me
to the store and test if it allow me to boot even because
they would say they can not risk there is some virus on that DVD/USB
So the only way to find out would be to ask the Press Officer/Information
Service of the Acer or Asus or Dell or HP or whatever company that have
that laptop or desktop made.
One can not trust the resellers to care. They sell them as is.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
-
HoerMirAuf
- Posts: 255
- Joined: Tue 22 Jan 2008, 12:11
- Location: Würzburg
Hi nooby..
... here in germany it is the same. I went to a shop and ask the reseller if i can try to boot from my usb-device. But he sayed the same like your resller. So, i bought my Notbook in the www. In germany you can give back every thing bought in internet since 2 weeks.
About lost warranty .... why it should lost it if you make a dual boot? You are not committed to use only windows on the Notebook. It is no improperly use, isn't it? You don't break any seals, only change the software. You can backup it bevore and if you want restore it to the original condition.
To switch between lagacy boot and uefi through bios is not very useful for every day use. On this way you can only boot from usb or similar, because you can't install any other bootloader to your gbt partitiontable-HDD. But you can use ubuntu by example. It can manage uefi an it is easy to install it beside windows8.
... here in germany it is the same. I went to a shop and ask the reseller if i can try to boot from my usb-device. But he sayed the same like your resller. So, i bought my Notbook in the www. In germany you can give back every thing bought in internet since 2 weeks.
About lost warranty .... why it should lost it if you make a dual boot? You are not committed to use only windows on the Notebook. It is no improperly use, isn't it? You don't break any seals, only change the software. You can backup it bevore and if you want restore it to the original condition.
On the search to my solution i started a request to Acer how to disable the secure-boot in Bios. The answer i get back from the support was wrong. They gave me not working instruction .... but, thanks good, the bios-mods guys knew the right way.So the only way to find out would be to ask the Press Officer/Information
Service of the Acer or Asus or Dell or HP or whatever company that have
that laptop or desktop made.
To switch between lagacy boot and uefi through bios is not very useful for every day use. On this way you can only boot from usb or similar, because you can't install any other bootloader to your gbt partitiontable-HDD. But you can use ubuntu by example. It can manage uefi an it is easy to install it beside windows8.
HoerMirAuf , thanks for sharing your experiences.
I get curious on dual boot with Ubuntu.
Would that dual boot maybe allow us to
ride on Ubuntu by adding to the Ubuntu
boot a frugal install of any standard Puppy?
One use Ubuntu to enter the extra line of code
to the boot entry for ubuntu? So when one change
from windows to Ubuntu one see two entries there
Ubuntu and Puppy? Or am I too naive maybe?
How is it set up that only Ubuntu can be seen?
Does the boot complain if one try to change the code?
Does it get over ridden each time one shut down Ubuntu
so it is always fresh when one reboot? Could one not
manually add Puppy to the menu.lst something for Ubuntu?
The Puppy directory are only files on the same partition
that have Ubuntu so would the boot program know one
added that code?
Sorry me ask so much.
I can buy the cheapest "Acer" now on Sunday here locally.
Less than 300€uro for 4GB RAM and 500MB HD
and 64bit Laptop. Would be cool to have but if it fail to boot
then it is lost money so me feel too unsure and want to have
some kind of good advice first.
I get curious on dual boot with Ubuntu.
Would that dual boot maybe allow us to
ride on Ubuntu by adding to the Ubuntu
boot a frugal install of any standard Puppy?
One use Ubuntu to enter the extra line of code
to the boot entry for ubuntu? So when one change
from windows to Ubuntu one see two entries there
Ubuntu and Puppy? Or am I too naive maybe?
How is it set up that only Ubuntu can be seen?
Does the boot complain if one try to change the code?
Does it get over ridden each time one shut down Ubuntu
so it is always fresh when one reboot? Could one not
manually add Puppy to the menu.lst something for Ubuntu?
The Puppy directory are only files on the same partition
that have Ubuntu so would the boot program know one
added that code?
Sorry me ask so much.
I can buy the cheapest "Acer" now on Sunday here locally.
Less than 300€uro for 4GB RAM and 500MB HD
and 64bit Laptop. Would be cool to have but if it fail to boot
then it is lost money so me feel too unsure and want to have
some kind of good advice first.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
I think BIOS is gone on new computers. All I've seen now is UEFI. It's really not that bad. Secure boot can be disabled on all computers that ship with Windows 8. With Fatdog64-620 we support booting with Secure boot on or off. If it's on you'll be prompted to add Fatdog64's key. Here's some links to our FAQs that will give you some more information:
How to make a flash drive that will boot on BIOS and UEFI:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/fa ... drive.html
How to add Fatdog64's key for secure boot:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/fa ... -boot.html
How to do a frugal dual boot with Windows 8:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/fa ... drive.html
How to make a flash drive that will boot on BIOS and UEFI:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/fa ... drive.html
How to add Fatdog64's key for secure boot:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/fa ... -boot.html
How to do a frugal dual boot with Windows 8:
http://distro.ibiblio.org/fatdog/web/fa ... drive.html
Thanks, may I humbly ask how you can know
that all of them allow that one shut it off?
Microsoft did tell us that it was up to the maker
of the hardware to decide so could it not be
very individual and not a general thing as you
assert here. Had I knew yesterday then I maybe
would have bought a laptop but I did not want
to throw the money away of something that would fail.
Do you refer to some agreement or something
that assure us that it will work? AFAIK one guy
bricked his Samsung computer and it was not
possible to get it back in working unless one
took it apart and took out the battery backup
and let it go back to factory settings.
Apart from my worry much appreciated you
provide that key. Will that make it possible
to trippleboot with other puppies too?
that all of them allow that one shut it off?
Microsoft did tell us that it was up to the maker
of the hardware to decide so could it not be
very individual and not a general thing as you
assert here. Had I knew yesterday then I maybe
would have bought a laptop but I did not want
to throw the money away of something that would fail.
Do you refer to some agreement or something
that assure us that it will work? AFAIK one guy
bricked his Samsung computer and it was not
possible to get it back in working unless one
took it apart and took out the battery backup
and let it go back to factory settings.
Apart from my worry much appreciated you
provide that key. Will that make it possible
to trippleboot with other puppies too?
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
About the Samsung brick. That's fixed in kernel 3.7.9, which will be in Fatdog64-620 final. The 620 beta has 3.7.7 so that could be a problem.
Tripple booting with other puppies will work not worK with secure boot on because they won't be signed with Fatdog64's key. With secure boot off they will work as long as they have configured their kernel to be a uefi application.
Tripple booting with other puppies will work not worK with secure boot on because they won't be signed with Fatdog64's key. With secure boot off they will work as long as they have configured their kernel to be a uefi application.
One other thing. I recommend you make a flash drive using the instructions above and try it out on the computer your're going to buy. On my array of new test computers (courtesy Wal-mart 
) I did find a couple that would not take Machine owner Keys. Just broken UEFI implementations. Of course if you're going to turn if off any way that doesn't matter. It's also nice to know if the hardware is well supported by the kernel too.
) I did find a couple that would not take Machine owner Keys. Just broken UEFI implementations. Of course if you're going to turn if off any way that doesn't matter. It's also nice to know if the hardware is well supported by the kernel too." I recommend you make a flash drive
using the instructions above and try it out
on the computer your're going to buy."
I asked about that here in Sweden and
they don't allow one do such things at all.
In some thread about UEFI another guy
had asked same in Germany and them
did not allow such test either.
using the instructions above and try it out
on the computer your're going to buy."
I asked about that here in Sweden and
they don't allow one do such things at all.
In some thread about UEFI another guy
had asked same in Germany and them
did not allow such test either.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
That stinks. It's really not just the UEFI stuff, but how well Linux supports the hardware. Things like the touchpad, wifi, and even video can all cause problems, especially in really new stuff. I guess if you find a model number you like, you can google it and see if someone's tried Linux on it. I just stopped by a walmart, they had 7 or 8 laptops on display and I went down the line and tried them all. I didn't ask anyone, but booting from usb or cd doesn't hurt anything.I asked about that here in Sweden and
they don't allow one do such things at all.
Here is something that maybe change how to do it?
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/ ... USB_hijack
So for to stop such hijacking they send out a patch
so if one have a computer that does such updates
then maybe booting into linux using USB would stop working?
How else can they stop it?
We are physically at the computer and insert the USB
for to boot it up with another operating system.
Win8 can not know we are the owners of that win8?
I only guess.
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/ ... USB_hijack
So for to stop such hijacking they send out a patch
so if one have a computer that does such updates
then maybe booting into linux using USB would stop working?
How else can they stop it?
Is that not exactly how it would look to the patch.Microsoft's latest patches squash potential USB hijack
Microsoft's Patch Tuesday fixes four sets of critical vulnerabilities, including many found in Internet Explorer
By Joab Jackson
March 12, 2013
...
Someone with access to company premises after hours could use the vulnerability to purloin data from work machines. Public kiosks and other public computers without locked cabinets could also be at risk, Storms advised.
"These vulnerabilities could be exploited by attackers to gain the ability to execute code in the kernel, but the attacker must be physically at the computer and able to insert a USB device into the vulnerable machine," added Marc Maiffret, chief technology officer for identity management software provider BeyondTrust, in another note.
...
We are physically at the computer and insert the USB
for to boot it up with another operating system.
Win8 can not know we are the owners of that win8?
I only guess.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
When getting my first exposure to Windows 8 on a friend's HP laptop, I found that Windows 8 as it stands is not anything I would want on a computer.
But in my investigation of the possibility of being able to boot Puppy linux on it, I went to the BIOS setup page.
On it, I saw the option to choose Legacy boot.
But it also had another that had something like a switch to toggle an option to inspect suspicious software/DVD/CD and stop if it was detected.
That switch worried me.
Could it mean that the option, if on, would see any other OS as suspicious and fail to boot?
But in my investigation of the possibility of being able to boot Puppy linux on it, I went to the BIOS setup page.
On it, I saw the option to choose Legacy boot.
But it also had another that had something like a switch to toggle an option to inspect suspicious software/DVD/CD and stop if it was detected.
That switch worried me.
Could it mean that the option, if on, would see any other OS as suspicious and fail to boot?
The odd thing is that officially I am a very low income retired
living on the minimum pension that everybody get.
Some 10.000 SEK so that is about 8000 when tax is paid
so that is about 1200USD a month and then you pay for the apartment
and food and electricity and so on. But still due to cheap apartment
and me drink neither beer nor coffee or coke I can buy a 3000SEK
cheap computer a month and it would only hurt my stingy pride whatever.
So to find out what would happen I could just buy one as an experiment
but it seems a waist of money to do it. Kind of odd that so few tells us
what happens and what machine they tested it on. we maybe have to
frequent other forum to find out.
living on the minimum pension that everybody get.
Some 10.000 SEK so that is about 8000 when tax is paid
so that is about 1200USD a month and then you pay for the apartment
and food and electricity and so on. But still due to cheap apartment
and me drink neither beer nor coffee or coke I can buy a 3000SEK
cheap computer a month and it would only hurt my stingy pride whatever.
So to find out what would happen I could just buy one as an experiment
but it seems a waist of money to do it. Kind of odd that so few tells us
what happens and what machine they tested it on. we maybe have to
frequent other forum to find out.
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
not an ideal solution though
UEFI Boot and Puppy --- is there a noob HowTo?
Hi nooby,This whole scenario reminds me of the old XT computers that were sold to customers as being IBM PC compatible.They were somewhat less expensive ,so my boss at the time ,shelled out his money,and became a proud
owner of one.Unfortunately it refused to run some programs that my boss had
wanted to run.So after burning a different bios chip,installing,it became truly compatible.I reckon the moral of this story is "Look before you leap,the water may be deep" Cheap prices may be like Forrest Gumps "Box of chocolates" "You never know what you will get" cheers
owner of one.Unfortunately it refused to run some programs that my boss had
wanted to run.So after burning a different bios chip,installing,it became truly compatible.I reckon the moral of this story is "Look before you leap,the water may be deep" Cheap prices may be like Forrest Gumps "Box of chocolates" "You never know what you will get"
cheers-
Sky Aisling
- Posts: 1368
- Joined: Sat 27 Jun 2009, 23:02
- Location: Port Townsend, WA. USA
UEFI Boot and Puppy --- is there a noob HowTo?
HoerMirAuf
Here's some reading material about the secure boot feature of UEFI
http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... we-know-it
http://www.eightforums.com/windows-8-ne ... rives.html
http://idiallo.com/blog/2013/07/laptop- ... c-for-os10
Here's some reading material about the secure boot feature of UEFI
http://arstechnica.com/information-tech ... we-know-it
http://www.eightforums.com/windows-8-ne ... rives.html
http://idiallo.com/blog/2013/07/laptop- ... c-for-os10
I can't escape the feeling that UEFI is nasty. It would force me to trust the supplier of a software OS that I could not ever trust.
Maybe at the moment it is possible to find a 'backdoor' through the UEFI but how long before it becomes impenetrable to Linux users (or any other 'non-approved' end user).
I will be writing to my local hardware suppliers to ask them for a list of non-UEFI hardware. Might pay to get some while it is available...
Maybe at the moment it is possible to find a 'backdoor' through the UEFI but how long before it becomes impenetrable to Linux users (or any other 'non-approved' end user).
I will be writing to my local hardware suppliers to ask them for a list of non-UEFI hardware. Might pay to get some while it is available...