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Need on-screen keyboard with mouse functions
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2290
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 13:44    Post subject:  

I have a dream....
Service puppy on a stick.....

One main reason for mainline build suggestion is the support for ARM devices. With a pair of $25 ARM based HDMI sticks with WiFi we could use any TV with a HDMI port as a monitor. Two Exactly the same stick have a built-in push button and a generic USB powered 12v battery adapter for the wheelchair. There are also portable HDMI projectors that will run directly off of 12v battery. just point the wheelchair toward a blank whitewall, which in a MDA clinic is always available, I've spent hours awaiting my appt counting wall dimples... So was everybody else. I was actually jealous of the guys with the wheelchairs that could lay flat and sleep. Embarassed
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 14:44    Post subject: Wary as Test bed  

Hi All,

Ted Dog, I like your dream. Nice goal to shoot for. Just a couple of things to consider: I'm not sure anyone currently involved with the project has the expertise for it; or even a woof-build. I've remastered pups many times, which means anyone can learn to remaster. But, then again, maybe with ARM as a vehicle it will catch Barry K's interest, or someone like technosaurus.
Most of my exploring has been done using precise, or more accurately, jejy69's apt-get-test pup to obtain debs to build SFSes to test in pemau's non-PAE precise, and occasionally a Slacko. [Currently exploring mouseless window-managers]. I can run any precise or slacko on a 12 year old Thinkpad, as long as it doesn't use a PAE kernel. I have little experience with Wary, but have worked a lot with Saluki and Carolina. Both these are based on Racy, which --if I recall correctly-- is based on Wary. Unfortunately, most applications built for Saluki and Carolina won't run in precise or slacko, and vice versa.
So I think our next step would be to test magoo, xvkbd, nav and radar under wary and see if they work, and if not are they fixable?

On second thought, what we should probably do is a three fold attack on the project: (1) produce a remasater of magoo --as it almost ready, albeit still using QWERTY; and (2) work of Wary as a interim solution while (3) keeping ARM as an ultimate objective. A bad solution is better than no solution. And I keep thinking about the many people currently locked out of communicating with the rest of the world. 29 keypresses to type the world Leafpad is bad. Being unable to type at all is worse. Do nothing for 2 minutes. Then think about an 8 hour day of being unable to do anything.

mikesLr
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Ted Dog


Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 2290
Location: Heart of Texas

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 15:15    Post subject: I Code when motivated  

Ive Built puppy flavors before woof and I plan to build after woof, however, I hate to steal thundar from the younger coders so I ENCOURAGE and Wait, this project moved quickly and nicely along. I have a few ARM machines and even wrote the first non BK ARM pet for a needed function to get the ball rolling. I know this is something I could do, just awaiting price points and a finish line to appear. I already have an ARM based computer and a projector running from a Wheelchair type battery under 30watt
s
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2755
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 16:54    Post subject:  

Ted Dog, if you could PM me about ARM Puppies -- I do NOT want to derail this thread, and I have sort of a request re: Puppy on ARM, which I'd like to talk to you about. Nobody's really taken it up, and although I have hunches I've never really confirmed why.
_________________
Loving X-Slacko 1.1! Get the PetGet patch on pg8; it's important.
Next system will be an HP MOCA-AR + Core2Duo in an innovative case... if I ever get off my butt and build it Razz
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 18:29    Post subject: Wary -- Inital Report  

Hi All,

Initial report regarding Wary. Frugal install of Wary 5.5. Both Magoo & xvkbd work. Will have to re-read posts on Nav & Radar so I'll know what I'm doing before working with them.
Couple of things I've noticed so far. Magoo 129 pet opens in the center of the desktop. I think xvkbd does as well. As did Abiword. At any rate, when applications overlap they have to be moved: a problem if you limited to a single press. Perhaps we should be considering some kind of windows manager which can be operated by keyboard commands. Iguleder built cwm (calm) a while back in Puppy 5.3 and Slackware. http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=73866&sid=d05def88531aa4488d23c525726c44c2, but there are others. From what I've read about cwm, it's highly configurable: Maybe enough so that it would be possible to build an onscreen keyboard with keys optimized for single-stick.
Unless I've missed something, to type into Abiword it has to be opened --which is why I like Magoo's nice big icon: easy targets-- xvkbd's focus button must be pressed, Abiword clicked on to focus on it, and then mouse returned to xvkbd to begin typing. Lots of work. Should be an easier way.
Pressing F12 on xvkbd will open a drop down Programs-Menu, but I haven't figured out how to use it. Typing anything closes it. Direction keys should have worked. Otherwise, focusing and lots of mouse moves are needed to launch an application from the Start Menu. Best, of course, that most used applications be callable from Mago.

Ted Dog: Great to hear you have technical expertise. My apologies for the unintentional slighting of your ability. Guess I've been wondering around the wrong threads. It's a big Forum. And starhwk, please consider after emailing Ted Dog opening a thread dedicated to Arming the disabled. Perhaps there are others who also have been waiting, knowing too little to do anything other than appear ignorant. One of the great things about this Forum is that even if by no other means by Crown-Sourcing and experimentation we can stumble forward. The only stupid question is the one which wasn't asked.

mikesLr
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2755
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Sun 31 Mar 2013, 19:03    Post subject:  

mikeslr, I'll be honest with you -- I can't program to save my life. I know a teeny tiny bit of an old M$ copy of BASIC that came with Windows 3.1, and that's as far as I get. I can sort of read bash scripts and that sort of stuff, but show me any real code and I'm completely lost in seconds.

All I wanted from Ted Dog was to see if he could make a version of Puppy that runs on a particularly inexpensive Android Cloud Stick I have, that I traded for on another forum. I honestly don't know what I'd do with it even if he could get that working, as I don't have a monitor with HDMI or even DVI (same basic signal, different number of pins) with which to use the thing. I've plenty of VGA monitors -- just, the only thing in my house with DVI is my much-neglected TV set, and I've no idea if that connector even works! (There are other dead ports on this TV.) I'd have to buy an adapter, either way...

When it comes to computers, I'm about 99% hardware. The 1% that's left over is my software skills, and they're pretty sorry.

It's probably just as well that the Arduino solution I was babbling about didn't get picked -- it would've taken me at least a year to learn to code Arduino stuff...

_________________
Loving X-Slacko 1.1! Get the PetGet patch on pg8; it's important.
Next system will be an HP MOCA-AR + Core2Duo in an innovative case... if I ever get off my butt and build it Razz
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ETP


Joined: 19 Oct 2010
Posts: 527
Location: UK

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2013, 03:25    Post subject: More Questions  

Will:

Sorry to ask yet more questions but I omitted to ask about the age of the kit that may be available.

Also can you give an indication of the following in rough percentage terms?

1. Users for who head tracking would be the only option.
2. Users who could cope with both the switch solution and head tracking.
3. Only cope with the switch solution due to lack of muscular control.
4. Have poor vision.
5. Use Google voice search.

With regard to webcam mouse control, do not get too excited as it may yet not prove possible with Puppy. It would however be the icing on the cake if we can get it to work. We are a persistent bunch on this forum and someone may be able to compile Eviacam 1.6.1 and its prerequisites (opencv & wxwidgets) from source at a later date. I have tried and failed but lack experience in that area.

There are reports of Eviacam (which is free) working well with Ubuntu. It is available as a PPA. In addition there is the option of Camera Mouse-2013 with Windows 7 which I have tested and works superbly. That does require a fairly recent PC with 2GB of memory but may be the only option for some.

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Regards ETP
Accessibility Pups: -- Magoo -- The Pup With No Name -- MouseCam -- Obedient
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2013, 16:55    Post subject: starhawk -- your a couple of steps ahead of me  

Hi starhawk,

Having played with a couple of programming languages, I know every one has to have a structure and almost every one has to be able to accomplish the same things. So I have sort of a reading knowledge of programming languages especially if I can access a computer-language to English dictionary. After that, its trial-and-error.

mikesLr
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2755
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Mon 01 Apr 2013, 19:41    Post subject:  

It's more difficult than that, for me.

QBASIC is the language I sort of started to teach myself, way back in 1997 or so -- and it's really all I know to any significant degree. When I was learning QBASIC, line numbers and GOTO instructions were all the rage -- QBASIC is at its heart a "procedural" language. As I understand it, that means that the computer primarily executes instructions in the order that they occur, with little room for deviation. Line 12 always comes before line 13.

Around the turn of the century and amid the Y2K bug fears, programmers changed their preferences to something I don't really even understand at all called "object-oriented" programming. I don't know a thing about it, except that the line numbers and GOTOs are all gone.

As a humorous aside -- a college professor of mine admitted to creating his own Y2K bug, as a practical joke to play on a friend of his. It was an MS Word macro -- a sort of mini-program that ran within Word -- that changed every 'y' character typed into a 'k' character. Somehow I doubt that the recipient of this 'bug' was nearly as amused as my professor, but it is an amusing story to mention.

_________________
Loving X-Slacko 1.1! Get the PetGet patch on pg8; it's important.
Next system will be an HP MOCA-AR + Core2Duo in an innovative case... if I ever get off my butt and build it Razz
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr 2013, 10:47    Post subject: xvkbd's word-completion  

Hi All,

I Misunderstood ETP's reference to xvkbd's word-completion. ETP mentioned that it was a simple text file. It's just a list of common words and phrases that as a user types, if word-completion is turned on, will appear in a dialog box enabling the user to choose from among them.This would be a great feature, significantly reducing both time and keypresses required to compose any text. Less of if you have to manually create the list. Googling indicated that xvkbd, by default, looks for the file at “/usr/share/dict/words,” but doesn't include it. I felt it odd that Tom Sato, having created such an impressive application, would leave it out. I'm not sure why I decided to google the “word” in the foregoing quote. Early morning; hadn't had my second cup of coffee. But it turned out that is the standard location for such list in Unix systems. A little further searching revealed that “The Big Boys” maintain packages. Ubuntu calls their packages “wordlist.” Links to wordlist for various incarnation of Ubuntu can be found here:http://packages.ubuntu.com/raring/wordlist. I doubt if there's much difference between the wordlists for hardy and those for raring. But for American, British and Canadian English Ubuntu offers four choices ranging in size from small to insane. We should probably test which size would be most productive in our setting. These lists do not include common phrases; only words. I chose raring-large, downloaded and dissembled it. Sure enough a wordlist file (albeit, with a more descriptive name) was found in /usr/share/dict/. It contained over 163,000 words listed one line at a time. It would be fairly easy to repackage xvkbd to include a wordlist, or offer alternative pets.

Starhawk: Basically --no pun intended-- they didn't change much. In qbasic you'd write a subroutine which the program would call by going to the line number where the subroutine began. "Modern" languages still use sub-routines, but you "define" them, that is by giving each of them a name; and the program calls them when their respective names appears in the main program routine. And, of course, one sub-routine can call another sub-routine.

Professors are as crazy as the rest of us. "Professional Ethics" was required course in Law School and, consequently, was given in a large lecture room. It had two doors. The professor would pace as he lectured. I didn't get much out of the course. He covered a good third of the material while he was in the hall, pacing out one door and in the other.

mikesLr
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr 2013, 17:14    Post subject: Word Completion & Exploring Radar  

Hi All,

I guessed right. Renaming the wordlist I extracted from the Ubuntu deb as "word" --without the quotes and placing it in a directory where xvkbd expected to find it worked. Can't attach a pet, it exceeds our forums new size limitations. Remind me to find out about why they exist and see if there's a better solution.
Created a pet of the new radar and installed it along with xvkbd in the Magoo pup. Can confirm greengeeks statement that they work fine together. Though they'll take some getting used to. But experimenting resulted in two helpful discoveries: while on a letter pressing Dbl-Click will generate two keystokes, such as ee oo ss etc.; and presing Rt-Click will generate a capital letter, reducing the need to use the shift key. I, hopefully, have attached the pet of radar7. Note, the executable has a symlinked in the Startup folder. If you don't want it to run immediately on bootup, delete that symlink.

Finally having tried radar, I see now that it provides for auto-scrolling and enables 360 degree directional control of mouse movements. Wish I could take back some suggestions which clearly demonstrated my ignorance. Just have to remember not to make them again in the next cycle of existence.
Radar's display nicely, automatically, positions itself at the bottom right corner of the screen. Xvkbd has to be moved, and can be resized, so that it runs from the desktop drive icons to Radar's display. There should be some way to have it open there. A user, on bootup, should be able to begin working immediately and not have to waste time moving applications around.

To do: Print out a couple of xvkbd's keyboard layouts files and see if by comparing them I can figure out how xvkbd uses them which would enable creation of a customized keyboard. Test xvkbd, radar and magoo on Wary.

mikesLr
Radar7.pet
Description  SRF's Mouse Controller
pet

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Filename  Radar7.pet 
Filesize  72.5 KB 
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2399
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr 2013, 19:05    Post subject: Re: Word Completion & Exploring Radar  

mikeslr wrote:
But experimenting resulted in two helpful discoveries: while on a letter pressing Dbl-Click will generate two keystokes, such as ee oo ss etc.; and presing Rt-Click will generate a capital letter, reducing the need to use the shift key.
Nice find! That goes a long way toward reducing keystrokes. Typing annoying words like "committee" or "Mississippi" won't be so tiresome now Smile
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mikeslr


Joined: 16 Jun 2008
Posts: 764
Location: Union New Jersey USA

PostPosted: Tue 02 Apr 2013, 23:37    Post subject: Further Exploration of NavBar and Radar  

Hi All,

Can confirm that Magoo, xvkbd, radar and NavBar work well with Magoo Pup and Wary 5.5. Unless the speed of NavBar is higher than that of radar, the latter seems easier to use. Still have the problem of having to click xvkbd's focus button, then the app into which I desire to type, then return to the keyboard before I can begin typing. But was happy to discover that with Abiword in focus, both NavBar and radar enabled the use of xvkbd's Alt and Ctrl keys so that Abiwords functions could be called via keyboard commands. Not sure if NavBar's "Drag" command is supposed to enable the dragging of a window, or if so, how, Attempt to do so wasn't successful. Didn't try doing that with Radar.
Made a pet of NavBar but won't upload it at this time. Perhaps if both came in the form of SFSes, they could be exited without the current complexity. Of course, the only reason to exit one would be to load the other.
The problem with using either is that they require the user to look in three places: the mouse-controlling-app, the mouse-curser, and the application focused on. Even without figuring out how to create an entirely different keyboard for xvkbd, xvkbd's built in customization routine may make it possible to map NavBar to xvkbd's function keys, including changing the symbols displayed.
And while I like Magoo, it will frequently be hidden by open applications. I wonder if substituting fbpanel (which can remain hidden at an edge until moused over) to provide a launch vehicle for favorite apps might not have an advantage.
Real life will keep me from further exploring and reporting for a couple of days.
Until then, have fun.

mikesLr
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ETP


Joined: 19 Oct 2010
Posts: 527
Location: UK

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013, 12:05    Post subject: Assisting Disabled
Subject description: Update plus beta ISO for testing/experimentation
 

Firstly on behalf of this thread, can I express our thanks to SFR for all the work he has done and continues to do on Navbar & Radar. Without his superb coding skills we would still be scratching our heads.

Webcam Control

I am sorry to report that I have been unable to persuade Camera-Mouse 2011 to work under wine and dotnet. This feature will have to go on the back burner unless and until someone steps up to the plate and compiles Eviacam for puppy.

Xvkbd

This was obviously designed for people who could make full use of a mouse but not a traditional keyboard. The main issue for our purposes is launching the word completion panel which requires a “drag”, then way too precise mouse movement to launch it. Perhaps someone could email the designer to request a menu option to have it permanently displayed?

The Pup With No Name Beta ISO (tpwnn)

This should be available by the weekend.

I had been hoping to use Precise 5.5 as a base but was driven back to using Magoo (Netbook) V6 for a number of reasons. Despite using the same kernel (k3.2.29), it plays better with old hardware and for some reason runs cooler. It has no DHCP problems and was originally intended for people new to computers. It therefore fits our target group better.

_________________
Regards ETP
Accessibility Pups: -- Magoo -- The Pup With No Name -- MouseCam -- Obedient

Last edited by ETP on Thu 04 Apr 2013, 13:56; edited 1 time in total
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2399
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 04 Apr 2013, 13:51    Post subject:  

I have finally managed to improve my remastering skills to the point where I got a functional pup iso using radar 0.8 and have started a new thread for my "SwitchPup" trials:

http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=696619#696619

This will just be somewhere that I can post my personal variations on the "one-switch" idea, rather than cluttering this current thread which is developing quite nicely in a variety of directions.
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