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 Forum index » House Training » Users ( For the regulars )
BK should do away with Wary & Racy
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sc0ttman


Joined: 16 Sep 2009
Posts: 2373
Location: UK

PostPosted: Tue 04 Jun 2013, 03:50    Post subject:  

Dewbie wrote:
partsman wrote:
Quote:
His Akita will support old hardware

True, but Wary will run on a wider variety of older hardware than Akita.

You know any specific devices supported by Wary that are not supported by Akita?? I would like to know which, and I will add the drivers/firmware to the akita zdrv .. Akita already as ALL extra 2.6.25.16 drivers/firmware etc included from the forum (but I don't know if the module stuff in ./etc is set up right)...

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Dewbie

Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Posts: 1783

PostPosted: Tue 04 Jun 2013, 04:41    Post subject:  

sc0ttman wrote:
Quote:
You know any specific devices supported by Wary that are not supported by Akita??

Yes, this one.
(Compaq Deskpro PII / 350 / 320MB RAM)

The last Puplite would boot to desktop and (supposedly) make a save file at shutdown.
But after rebooting there was none.
I also couldn't mount home drive with the drive icon; only Pmount would work.

Then with Akita, I couldn't get past Xorg or Xvesa to desktop.

It's not the kernel; 4.1.2 and 4.3.1 retro k2.6.25.16 run fine.
(as does Wary)

Apparently, it just wasn't meant to be. Neutral
Thanks, Scott. Smile
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npierce

Joined: 28 Dec 2009
Posts: 858

PostPosted: Mon 10 Jun 2013, 18:03    Post subject:  

Much of the discussion that I have seen in this thread and elsewhere looks at the Wary vs. Precise question in terms of support for old hardware. Hardware support is certainly a major difference between the two, and I appreciate the fact that Puppy has given a new vitality to many former Windows boxes that would otherwise be adding to the planet's ever-growing landfills. That in itself is a strong point that illustrates the continuing usefulness of Wary.

But I suggest that there is another difference between Wary and Precise that deserves equal or possibly even greater consideration.

My first Puppy was 4.3.1 which was, I think, one of the first in which petget supported installing .deb packages. Although I realised that there were no guarantees, I was often pleasantly surprised when I went to packages.debian.org and with just a few clicks was given a properly installed and functional application that hadn't been available in the official Puppy repositories.

The ability to install .deb packages greatly expanded the number of binary packages that could easily be installed on a Puppy, and was a big step forward. Barry built upon this by giving Woof the ability to build Puppies that were compatible with other specific distros. The repository of the compatible distro was now easily available right from the Puppy Package Manager, and the Puppy was built with binaries from the compatible distro, which increased the chances that a package installed from the compatible repository would work and require fewer dependencies than would otherwise be the case.

That was another big step forward.

Now none of this is news to anyone who has been using Puppy for a few years. I am merely reviewing this piece of Puppy's evolution to make it clear why I see the ability to easily access compatible repositories as a very positive change which gives us yet another option for installing packages in addition to the options we had in earlier Puppies.

Yet others, especially newcomers who are not as aware of Puppy's evolution and the limitations of the compatible repositories may not see it this way.

One user, when told that there was no guarantee that the PPM could successfully install a complicated Ubuntu app, expressed his surprise rather succinctly:
Quote:
. . . I find it disingenuous that a distro would put a program in their package manager that wouldn't install successfully.

The answer, of course, is that no Puppy developers put programs in the Ubuntu repositories; Ubuntu does. But that only changes the question to "Why would a distro use repositories that contain programs that won't install successfully in the distro?"

A valid reason for that is that there are many programs in those repositories that will install successfully, and so we can use those repositories as an additional source of packages as long as we understand that some packages won't work for us.

But someone coming fresh from a world where distros use repositories full of packages which were specifically built for and tested with the distro may have a reasonable assumption that Puppy's PPM will use repositories that are also full of packages built for Puppy. For those users a Puppy like Wary or Racy is probably a better fit.


Even for those of us who do understand and accept the limitations of the compatible repositories, there are times when it is nice to have a distro with a traditional Puppy repository, like Wary or Racy.

As is the case with any new technology, when it first arrives it adds to the options available to people, but as people rely more and more on the new technology, the number of available options begins to decrease again, as the older options dwindle away. The horseless carriage was originally a new luxury for the rich which gave them another transportation option. Over the course of the twentieth century the automobile became more and more a necessity for many people, due to our increasing reliance on it. While many are still lucky enough to commute to work, buy groceries, and generally get around via foot, bicycle, horse, or train, many others would find life tough without a car. (Does your work place maintain a proper stable for parking your Palomino?)

Likewise, although the compatible repositories have expanded our world of packages, some built-for-Puppy packages that are easily available for old Puppies and current Wary & Racy Puppies, are not so easily available for Precise. That's because those applications are now available in the compatible repositories. Understandably, Barry is a man of many interests, and probably doesn't want to spend his retirement building a ton of packages over and over again for each new Puppy, especially when compatible packages already exist in the compatible repositories.

But the key word here is "compatible".

Consider this:

(First, let me be quick to point out that this story has a happy ending. I made mistakes along the way, but was able to eventually succeed at what I wanted. So I'm not looking for advice here, only illustrating a point with an example.)

Recently I wanted to answer a question from a user who was having some trouble getting his or her ssh server working properly. Having never installed an ssh server on Puppy before, I wanted to gain a little experience with it before attempting to answer the question. Being in Precise 5.6 at the time, I searched the PPM for openssh, and it found openssh-server_5.9p1 in the ubuntu-precise-main repository.

Good. The PPM indicated that I also needed four dependencies, and examining the dependencies indicated that one of those dependencies needed one more. "OK, six packages total, that's not bad," thought I.

All six packages installed fine. And the PPM indicated that there were no missing packages or libraries. But when I started the server directly (by running /usr/sbin/sshd), it was unable to find its configuration file. "OK," I thought, "I'm not starting it correctly; it's a service so I should start it with its init script," (by running /etc/init.d/ssh start).

Doing that resulted in a number of messages, including a couple related to Upstart:
Code:
initctl: Unable to connect to Upstart: Failed to connect to socket /com/ubuntu/upstart: Connection refused

Code:
start: Unable to connect to Upstart: Failed to connect to socket /com/ubuntu/upstart: Connection refused


Remembering the name "Upstart" (and its initially buggy introduction) from a few years ago when I was an Ubuntu user, I wasn't too surprised that Upstart was needed to start a service that was built for Ubuntu. My first thought was to try to figure-out a way to work around that need. But then I decided that, no, I'd rather try this as a "normal" user who doesn't want to fiddle with things to get them to work.

So I naively chose to attempt installing Upstart.

The PPM found upstart_1.5 for me, which had only four dependencies, but by the time dependencies for all dependencies were found, I saw that fifteen packages were needed, which would consume 6389 KB of space.

Although I thought that this seemed like overkill, just to get the ssh server running, I figured, "what the heck, in for a penny, in for a pound." So I proceeded.

The PPM reported that a couple of packages were not available and suggested that I update the local package database. I did happen to notice the names of the two packages and recognised them as being parts of Plymouth, Ubuntu's boot splash screen. "Hmmm . . . I'm installing a boot splash screen on my Puppy so that I can run an ssh server? What's wrong with this picture."

And yet I continued. Six minutes later the package database files were downloaded and processed. Then the fifteen packages were installed. The PPM discovered that a library was missing, and I installed that. Finally I was ready to start Upstart so that it could start the ssh server properly.

That's when I discovered just how naive I was. It soon became apparent to me that in order to get Upstart running I would need to install a new init executable. Since init is basically the mother of all processes, I assumed that overwriting Puppy's init would likely break lots of other things. And so I finally got smart and gave up.

A few minutes and 66 clicks later . . . the 22 packages were uninstalled.

So how did I finally get the ssh server installed and running?

I searched for sshd in the "Additional Software" forum, and immediately found this thread: openssh-5.1p1 client and server package

I installed the ssh server .pet, started it, and it just worked.

So let's see. In attempting to get the ssh server running with the Ubuntu package, I installed 22 packages with a total installed size of 11538 KB (according to the PPM), and still failed to get it going.

Using a single 207 KB package found in the forum, which had an installed size of only 584 KB (according to du), I had success.

Was the server I installed the latest and greatest? No. Could it have security holes in it that have been patched in a newer version. Possibly. Yet it served my needs for brief usage on a private network behind a firewall.

And yes, most of what I downloaded was a result of my own ignorance in thinking that I could successfully install Upstart. Yet, how many users are familiar enough with the design of an Ubuntu distro to know better than to make the attempt?

For comparison, I booted into the newest Racy that I have: 5.4.91 (which is wrapped in the Quirky 5.4.91 "one big file" image). Just as I did in Precise 5.6, I searched the PPM for openssh. This time I found openssh-5.8p2-w5c in the puppy-wary5-official repository. The description shown by the PPM was a bit of a surprise. (Here is what it said: "add widesceen resolutions to video bios, intel video chips only".) But I believed the name rather than the description, and so installed it. The PPM listed its installed size as 1176 KB, and it required no dependencies.

After installing, I did need to generate keys and configure /etc/hosts.allow for the ssh server. But nothing else needed to be installed. It just worked.

End of story.


Despite all I have just said, I really do like Precise, and like that its PPM can directly access the Ubuntu repositories. I could certainly have told the tales of various success stories instead of the failure described above. Anyone who has successfully installed an Ubuntu package knows that it can be done. I just wanted to illustrate the confusion and frustration which can result when an Ubuntu package is so woven into the fabric of Ubuntu, that an attempt to install it in Puppy fails.

Personally, I think that the positives out-weigh the negatives here. I expect an occasional failure when attempting to install an Ubuntu package. I don't mind. But I can understand why some users wouldn't feel the same, and believe that, for those users, the choice of a Puppy which uses a traditional Puppy-based repository is something worth keeping, even if that repository is small in comparison to Ubuntu's.

But although I think it is worth keeping, the question of whether or not it is worth the additional time that doing so would require is a question that only Barry can answer.
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 369
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun 16 Jun 2013, 05:28    Post subject: Should BK do away with Wary and Racy  

I personally think after thinking about this for along period that Barry must do what he believes is right and go with it.

Having decided to start my own little project I now have a real appreciation of how hard it is to develop a distro especially from source.

Or though I still believe that basing a version of Puppy on Ubuntu causes Puppy to be more ram hungry, I support BK in what ever he decides to do with Puppy.

There is enough resources in the Puppy Commnunity to support older hardware with different derivatives, and it is good to encourage a Do it yourself approach not relying on one person for the answers.
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Pelo


Joined: 10 Sep 2011
Posts: 2928
Location: Mer méditerrannée (1 kms°)

PostPosted: Fri 21 Jun 2013, 02:31    Post subject: the software makes the distro
Subject description: Why Precise ?
 

Why Precise ? its only a version of UBUNTU, which repositories are not compiled. Better choose Lucid, If you like UBUNTU.

The easier is using Ubuntu, which is not so big, for the moment. Bye, bye, Puppy and its lot of pleasure......
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ntg255

Joined: 29 Oct 2012
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Sat 22 Jun 2013, 15:49    Post subject:  

I'm keeping Wary. It ran on my HP Pavilion with 64MB RAM + swap pretty fine.
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session


Joined: 07 Feb 2011
Posts: 89
Location: Valley of the Sun

PostPosted: Sat 22 Jun 2013, 17:48    Post subject:  

ntg255 wrote:
I'm keeping Wary.

I speculate BK is keeping it, too: the way he mentions Wary concepts in passing tells me he doesn't want to completely abandon it.

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Primary - Intel Celeron 1.80GHz, 579MB RAM, ATI Rage 128 Pro ULTRA TF. Precise Puppy 5.7.1 Retro full install.
Secondary - Pentium 3 533MHz, 385MB RAM, Matrox MGA-G200 AGP. Precise Puppy 5.7.1 Retro frugal install. (IDE HD is 428 MB!)
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simargl

Joined: 11 Feb 2013
Posts: 572

PostPosted: Sat 22 Jun 2013, 18:48    Post subject:  

.
Last edited by simargl on Sun 01 Sep 2013, 11:17; edited 1 time in total
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 369
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat 29 Jun 2013, 18:16    Post subject:  

simargl wrote:
session wrote:
ntg255 wrote:
I'm keeping Wary.

I speculate BK is keeping it, too: the way he mentions Wary concepts in passing tells me he doesn't want to completely abandon it.


I just don't like when someone says "I'm using latest Wary/Racy Puppy" because that system
has nothing latest in it, core libraries are kept at same versions forever, from first release till
today. Wary uses glibc 2.11.1 according to distrowatch which is release from 2009, 4 year old
system is like prehistoric in time of frequent changes, it's probably full of security issues, and
bugs that were resolved upstream but never included because Puppy developers decided to
go with what's easier way.

And why Puppy must be based on other distribution? Probably because it's too small
distribution to have its own repository or pet package manager is not advanced enough to
allow easy system maintainance (upgrading).

Barry off course can do what ever he wants, but I think that continuing work on Wary doesn't
make sense at the moment, same as using Ubuntu as base and not pure Debian doesn't
make sense. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Debian+Synaptic would be perfect
combination for next official Puppy.



Its actually Glibc 2.10-1 according to the wary repos.

Yes synaptic is a good idea. Could have a Glibc and other systems files which need updating service pack which would be simpler than a whole new release to keep Wary going for old kit.
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Dewbie

Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Posts: 1783

PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul 2013, 16:32    Post subject:  

Wary might be updated with 3.x kernel. Smile
See BarryK's comments here.
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 369
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sat 06 Jul 2013, 07:49    Post subject: Yep  

Dewbie wrote:
Wary might be updated with 3.x kernel. Smile
See BarryK's comments here.


Barry seems very excited and inspired I say keep the creative juices flowing Fella.
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Dewbie

Joined: 15 Apr 2010
Posts: 1783

PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul 2013, 01:16    Post subject:  

BarryK wrote here:
Quote:
A small detail: I am thinking of dropping the name "Wary" and just use "Racy". There will no longer be separate Wary and Racy, and I like the latter name better.
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Tote


Joined: 19 Jan 2012
Posts: 227
Location: South Wales

PostPosted: Sun 07 Jul 2013, 01:57    Post subject:  

Could always call it Wracy Very Happy
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