Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Thu 23 Oct 2014, 11:20
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
The world has changed
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
Page 1 of 8 [112 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, ..., 6, 7, 8 Next
Author Message
Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 07:22    Post subject:  The world has changed
Subject description: Should Puppy change ?
 

Hi Puppy developers,

I ran into this comment from Koulaxisis, on the puppy derivative thread for Slacko 5.5 XL.

Quote:
I really love Puppy and i have installed it in many friends' computers. But they are always nagging about the same thing: Puppy is not really ready by default for usage by a newcomer. They have to do a lot of customizations, extra setups and downloads - and they don't have the time or the will to do so! That's why i did this remaster... Most of them were about to stop using Puppy, they wanted something more "ready-to-do-the-job". So, i created this to make their computing life easier... and after testing it a lot, i decided to share with everybody, not only my friends.


This piece of text reflects what I have gone through few years ago, when I tried to recommend puppy to others. And I did give up (I was weak). I use puppy myself ... but recommend others to install Mint.....

The world has changed. 10 years ago puppy was great because it was good solution for people that came from Win98 or people tired of XP updates. And since then puppy has not really changed (I know this will upset many many people that spend endless hours to bring out new versions) from a USER perspective. For example.look at what the puppy 2.x and 4.x series could do, and how it looked. Only thing that really changes was the drop of analog modems, sometime SCSI, in favor of WIFI and such.

Nowadays people use W7, W8, Android, Apple, and do not accept that they will have install a programs for everything the are used to doing. i.e. to be able to make a (powerpoint) presentation. They are used to full office suits. They are used to "instant quality", and throw it away just as easily if something isn't meeting their expectation.

This should seep through into puppy's community. The besides the quality of OS stability, there is an additional demand for quality of usability OOTB.

Puppy has so many good things, but some of them are blocking off new users. Why is it that the puppy releases that contain quality programs like Libreoffice and Gimp are DERIVATIVES. Only because they are larger than the minimum size ... ? I realy see a good future for the larger puppies. Please make them "mainstream".

Look at quality programs: the best of the best. Look at ergonomics and eye candy. Users are used to this with their experience in Android (phones) and W7 and Apple. Don't do less. And if it gives an iso that is 670Mbyte.... so be it. But it is complete OS. Some developers already understand this (Lighthouse Mariner, PhatSlacko, etc...). But why are these "the derivatives" ?

This is a revolution like we had 10 years ago when we had to pull linux from command line to mouse based. And now "mouse based" should be perfected.

I keep believing in puppy, will continue to use it ..... And maybe there comes a time when all my friends PC's run Puppy, and not Mint.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 428
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 08:14    Post subject:  

First of all, congratulations for this wonderful and sincere post! I totally agree, there should be an official "fat/mainstream/user-friendly/ version if we want to keep people to Puppy and bring some newcomers. Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora etc are not better than Puppy, they are just friendlier. We can do the same and we can do it better!
_________________
Christos Koulaxizis
Woof woof from Greece...

[ Puppy packages | Puppy search ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2940
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 11:11    Post subject:  

I have to say I agree. Puppy usually does need some occasional tinkering to behave. It's a hot rod not a Honda Razz

There are a few Puplets/derivatives that are able to provide a turnkey Puppy experience. (Turnkey = power it up and everything's there and ready to go) IIRC our resident boat-rocker, gcmartin, keeps a list in his back pocket.

Actually, IIRC there was a thread about those that he started, but I can't seem to find it. Maybe it was one of the ones that was deleted... or my skills with the forum search are lousy still.

_________________
Loving X-Slacko 2.1!
Custom Build: HP MOCA-AR + Core2Duo T7200 + 4gb RAM + 256gb SSD
...just needs a pretty case Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
gcmartin

Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4362
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 13:19    Post subject:  

Thanks Starhawk for the plug.

Volhout and Koulaxizis, "Thanks" for helping to open our eyes.

_________________
Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Engine or use DogPile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
6502coder

Joined: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 96
Location: Western United States

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 13:43    Post subject: I could not disagree more  

I agree that Puppy is not for the average, non-technical computer user. And that is EXACTLY why it SHOULD NOT be fat by default!

Puppy is great because of what it is -- a lightweight but fully usable and versatile OS. That makes it a good basis for all the many wonderful derivatives that customize it in various ways. The reverse approach -- taking a fat distro and then trying to strip out all the stuff that a particular user doesn't need, is much harder.

For people who want a fat Linux distro OOTB there are plenty of choices out there. I do not understand why so many Puppy users are so obsessed with "defending" Puppy and "converting" other people to Puppy. I choose to use Puppy for the same reason I choose to drink the beer I drink -- because I like it, and I could not care less who does or does not agree with my choices.

I would much rather see Puppy remain the great little tinkerer's OS it is, than become just another bloated, chrome-plated distro for technically-challenged appliance operators.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5037
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 15:02    Post subject:  

# One of the biggest Puppy problems is apps., they are not very portable.
Packages of apps. must work, users cannot be expected to "fiddle".!

The recent Puppy`s based on Ubuntu and Slack are of good parentage.
But only 1 parent would be better. Then 2 app. versions are not needed.
This gives a common base of libraries, so should be no lib. version problems.

# Another big problem is the Save file setup, better to have a Save dir.
Much simpler, and there`s no shutdown delay when booted from a USB.
.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 428
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 15:49    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
# One of the biggest Puppy problems is apps., they are not very portable.
Packages of apps. must work, users cannot be expected to "fiddle".!

The recent Puppy`s based on Ubuntu and Slack are of good parentage.
But only 1 parent would be better. Then 2 app. versions are not needed.
This gives a common base of libraries, so should be no lib. version problems.


I agree!! It's a problem indeed when we compile an app into one puppy and doesn't work in another. It's almost waste of time if can't be used by everyone!

_________________
Christos Koulaxizis
Woof woof from Greece...

[ Puppy packages | Puppy search ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 16:02    Post subject: Tinkerer or User
Subject description: why not both
 

It is obvious there are two camps. To be honest, I am still using Puppy because I see this as a hobby. I don't mind to install a new version, and accept to loose my save file once in a while, and start again. I don't mind to install from scratch and take the efford to tailor it. It is (one of) my hobbies.

But I spend the night on the couch if our PC malbehaves. Or if my wife can't open the docx she gets from a colleague. I am voting for a puppy she can use. I want to give her the snappy experience, and I don't want to spend my time in fiddeling with registers in Windows that I have to keep alivge on the system because no puppy that is complete enough to satisfy her needs ever gets stable. The fat puppies are not in focus, are not maintained, and only get limmitted testing. What is worse even: the pet's and sfs that should allow you to complete your system only get limitted or occasional testing.

There is a possibility to get the best of both worlds.

Tinkerens (developpers) want the latest of the greatest. And they WANT to get their hands dirty. Users DON'T want to download and install and update their system.

What if ...... under the puppy flag (mainstream, sanctioned by Barry) once in every 2 years, there is a well tested FAT version of puppy. The one for computer users. The one that has it all. This could coincide with a LTS release. Like we had Lucid, based on Ubuntu LTS. And we have Precise, based on Ubuntu LTS. There could be a Precise XL. With the eye candy, the quality packages. And that would be the release until there is another LTS. In the mean time there would be numerous other small puppies. Like we have now.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2596
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 16:06    Post subject:  

koulaxizis wrote:
I agree!! It's a problem indeed when we compile an app into one puppy and doesn't work in another. It's almost waste of time if can't be used by everyone!
I think this is one reason why it can be very valuable to have "fat" puppies like your XL - the more that is included the less there is a need to hunt for compatible packages - the fat puppy stands intact as a complete system "as is"...

I actually look for both types of puppies - sometimes barebones puppies and sometimes fat ones. It depends on the user I need to provide for, and what overall functionality is required (and what hardware is available...)

At the moment I really need a fully integrated pup for a psych patient who can't handle problematic issues so I'm going to give your XL a try and see how good the wordprocessing and printing functionality is. Thanks for building it!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 428
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 17:28    Post subject:  

Volhout wrote:
What if ...... under the puppy flag (mainstream, sanctioned by Barry) once in every 2 years, there is a well tested FAT version of puppy. The one for computer users. The one that has it all. This could coincide with a LTS release. Like we had Lucid, based on Ubuntu LTS. And we have Precise, based on Ubuntu LTS. There could be a Precise XL. With the eye candy, the quality packages. And that would be the release until there is another LTS. In the mean time there would be numerous other small puppies. Like we have now.


This could be a solution that will please everyone!


greengeek wrote:

I actually look for both types of puppies - sometimes barebones puppies and sometimes fat ones


Me too! But not everyone has the time, the knowledge and the "geekiness" to try 20 puplets until find the one he can use! The average user needs a user-friendly distro that just works. And i am sure that we can provide that (following Volhout's idea, for example)!

greengeek wrote:
At the moment I really need a fully integrated pup for a psych patient who can't handle problematic issues so I'm going to give your XL a try and see how good the wordprocessing and printing functionality is. Thanks for building it!


I hope you will find it handy! If you have anything to suggest and make it better, please do so! Smile

_________________
Christos Koulaxizis
Woof woof from Greece...

[ Puppy packages | Puppy search ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2940
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 17:49    Post subject:  

I like Volhout's suggestion as well -- one Pup for the users, several for the tinkerers. That strikes me as a good balance -- which is something else to strive for in many if not all things.
_________________
Loving X-Slacko 2.1!
Custom Build: HP MOCA-AR + Core2Duo T7200 + 4gb RAM + 256gb SSD
...just needs a pretty case Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2596
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 18:57    Post subject:  

While we are talking about useful versions of puppy - does anyone have a "ready-to-go" iso of a kiosk puppy? (ie a puppy that is locked down so users cannot damage it.)

I know shadower.sc has posted threads detailing how to do it but it is certainly daunting for newcomers to achieve it and I thought it would be nice to add some "kiosk" puppy isos to the list so that there are 3 categories - eg: 'barebones' etc for tinkerers, 'fat' puppies for the users who need maximum capabilities, and 'kiosk' for the situations where the user cannot be trusted...

(even just one kiosk puppy would probably satisfy this user:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=87850)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5037
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 23:34    Post subject:  

greengeek; Usually "kiosk" means just a browser and not much more.

RoxApp style no-install apps. are easy to up-grade, or have many versions.
And the best part... No-install apps. don`t take Save file space ( very little ).

My current Puppy-5.4.X.5 has SeaMonkey, and I have Rox style apps. of
Firefox and Chrome on it too. I`ve had all 3 running at the same time.

Users or tinkerers, there`s really no difference in the Puppy version.
User versions can be thought of as fully developed GUI driven O.S.s.

Fat Puppies ( big...) if they`re made properly require less app. installing.
But the same problems adding apps., you have to be able to add apps.!

Fat or bare bones, the reason apps. don`t work is Puppy version differences.
Across Ubuntu and Slack versions, getting apps. to work is hit or miss.

Multiple parented Puppy versions require multiple sets of apps. to be made.
It`s just too much wasted labor reinventing the wheel over and over again.

The Puppy community is scattered, inventive but little over-all direction.
The Ubuntu versions are a good base to focus on and to rally around.

### I`ve campaigned for barebones with RoxApps as it`s package base.
It has no more than the user needs, and sooo easy to upgrade apps too.
.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
ardvark


Joined: 01 Jul 2013
Posts: 1010
Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed 14 Aug 2013, 23:37    Post subject:  

Hi all...

I agree with Volhout, I found the software offerings in Wary 5.5 to be extremely limited as well as the OS itself to be bit buggy. This definitely needs to be changed. At the same time, the role Puppy plays in helping extend the life of older PC's is a very important (and much needed) one. I think this should remain the focus. Any changes should strive to keep to this principle. Then whatever the individual end user chooses to make of his/her copy (upon installation) is their choice. Smile

Regards...

_________________
Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ loves and cares about you most of all!

PLEASE READ! You don't have to end up here!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message 
koulaxizis


Joined: 17 Jul 2011
Posts: 428
Location: Greece

PostPosted: Thu 15 Aug 2013, 03:10    Post subject:  

ardvark wrote:
I found the software offerings in Wary 5.5 to be extremely limited as well as the OS itself to be bit buggy. This definitely needs to be changed. At the same time, the role Puppy plays in helping extend the life of older PC's is a very important (and much needed) one. I think this should remain the focus. Any changes should strive to keep to this principle. Then whatever the individual end user chooses to make of his/her copy (upon installation) is their choice.


Wary is targeting users with old hardware who just want to revive their computer to do some work. So let's say that it's OK with the limited software, however it could be expanded a little with light apps. But Racy could be more up-to-date, with software variety and ready to work, without binaries from other distros. An "original" and always "fresh" woof-based Puppy.

_________________
Christos Koulaxizis
Woof woof from Greece...

[ Puppy packages | Puppy search ]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website 
Display posts from previous:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 8 [112 Posts]   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, ..., 6, 7, 8 Next
Post new topic   Reply to topic View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1046s ][ Queries: 12 (0.0041s) ][ GZIP on ]