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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Suggestions
The world has changed
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Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 09:10    Post subject:    

01micko wrote:
Volhout wrote:
See, the world has changed, people notice, and don't want puppy to die .... they do see a future.

http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=88215

Maybe there is (in the end) sufficient leverage to lift puppy up. It may be an outdated term .... puppy becomes yuppie.....
You'll have a hard time convincing BK. He is adhered to at least rox. WM is of a different matter, he has been known to use icewm and openbox.



Dear 01Micko,

I am sure a lot can be done with simple changes to the jwm/rox combo to improve, and actually I am so used to rox it's not bad at all. I do miss the tree view though. In this thread it sounds a bit like I propose to change simply everything. That is absolutely not true. There is a reason I use puppy. And I am only proposing to change where I see improvement possible. Mostly for "users". Maybe it is sufficient to embrace R-S-H's lazypup architecture to keep a small basic puppy, and have a set of SFS's dynalically loadable under desktop buttons (click first time takes a little longer since the sfs loads on the fly, but successive times are blazing fast). Maybe it is sufficient to restructure the menu so it has 2 modes. Expert mode shows as is. User mode shows only entries that are interesting for end users. There are so many idea's. I admire your desktop templates. I alway go to "minimal icons". Precise does not have that....
It is amazing that Barry favors JWM and there is no "desktop theme" tool. You configure JWM, then configure GTK, then assign a cursor type, then choose an icon theme. And if the developer (for Slacko that is you) has combinet a tasty set, you can create nice looking alternate desktop.
If we would keep JWM that could be somthing to improve. Have guys from the eye candy thread / my puppy is more gorgeous thread challenged to create the best JWM desktop, and collect the themes they come up with. Have these "selectable" in a new to make theme manager. Delete the individual tools, maybe in PPM as PET for the fun.
Not a zillion, just 3 or 4 would be sufficient (as long as one contains a guitar ... lol)

idea's idea's ..... plenty.

For good looks, I think macpup is a good example. Problem with macpup is that they have a good looking desktop, but once you open programs you fall back to the graphics of thos programs, and that is a large contrast sometimes (install Chromium in macpup, you will inherit the tabs from the chromium browser that heavily contrast the macpup themes).
Maybe we are in a better shape with JWM than with e17 to get homogene looks between the supported packages in the fat puppy. If users install external packages it is fine if they mismatch. But the ones that are standard in the fat release should.

- complete
- simple (less is better)
- attractive

- off topic- Another thing I am not sure JWM can do, is open every window maximized. Multiple windows would be on multiple desktops. This is very handy on smaller screens like a netbook.
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R-S-H

Joined: 18 Feb 2013
Posts: 490

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 11:05    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
ahhh, the old phrase "a good OS shouldn't get in the way" ... now who said that?

Could have been LazY Puppy!? Laughing

Volhout wrote:
There is a reason I use puppy.

Yes, over here as well! Cool

Volhout wrote:
... ... And I am only proposing to change where I see improvement possible. Mostly for "users". Maybe it is sufficient to embrace R-S-H's lazypup architecture to keep a small basic puppy, and have a set of SFS's dynalically loadable under desktop buttons (click first time takes a little longer since the sfs loads on the fly, but successive times are blazing fast). Maybe it is sufficient to restructure the menu so it has 2 modes. Expert mode shows as is. User mode shows only entries that are interesting for end users. There are so many idea's. I admire your desktop templates. I alway go to "minimal icons". Precise does not have that....
It is amazing that Barry favors JWM and there is no "desktop theme" tool. ... ...

Thank you very much, really!

I'm now feeling heard, noticed and also very pleased! Smile

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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5031
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 11:14    Post subject:  

jpeps; Explain...
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oldyeller


Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 803
Location: Mishawaka IN

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 13:19    Post subject:  

Quote:

Volhout wrote:
... ... And I am only proposing to change where I see improvement possible. Mostly for "users". Maybe it is sufficient to embrace R-S-H's lazypup architecture to keep a small basic puppy, and have a set of SFS's dynalically loadable under desktop buttons (click first time takes a little longer since the sfs loads on the fly, but successive times are blazing fast). Maybe it is sufficient to restructure the menu so it has 2 modes. Expert mode shows as is. User mode shows only entries that are interesting for end users. There are so many idea's. I admire your desktop templates. I alway go to "minimal icons". Precise does not have that....
It is amazing that Barry favors JWM and there is no "desktop theme" tool. ... ...


I do agree with using a menu system that will give the user a choice of what level to have. One can also use pmenu menu eidtor or one like it as well to remove and add items back in.

We should see how many here would want to do graphics and any scripting for this. My wife does all of mine except 1 or 2 of them. There is a lot of talent in Puppy land/kennels.

1) What would you want for wm?
2) What kind of backgrounds?
3) The menu system-very important (RSH menu) maybe?
4) Programs?
5) What Size of the Puppy?
6) Who we want to head this up?

One could also take from puppies some of their favorite programs and add them in like RSH menu. There is one program that can also me brought from dpup485 and modified for this as well. Take what we find as the best in some and include it.

This does not have to be an Official one.
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 21:27    Post subject:  

oldyeller wrote:


1) What would you want for wm?
2) What kind of backgrounds?
3) The menu system-very important (RSH menu) maybe?
4) Programs?
5) What Size of the Puppy?
6) Who we want to head this up?


1: There's a variety of WMs that each have their advantages/disadvantages. That's up to the individual user to decide.
2: You can load any background you like. What's important is a good manager, which we have.
3: You can create all kinds of things...like adding huge lists of similar programs on the right click. I suppose if that was important, it would have already been instituted . Many ideas don't stand the test of time. Personally, I very rarely use the menu at all. Most people use the same few applications over and over again. I select my favorites using a bacon checkbox app I wrote, but there are many ways to access them (icons on the desktop, etc.).
4. We already have a good selection of included apps well integrated into each distribution. Everyone uses a computer for different things, so again flexibility is key. Woof became popular for that reason...access to different types of databases.
5. People are drawn to Puppy because it's small and fast. There's no need for another Ubuntu.
6. This question always comes up every time there's a similar thread (and there are a zillion similar threads). The answer has always been whoever feels like putting in the time. Forget that WE WANT has any importance at all. Generally these threads are populated mainly by a few non-developers and go nowhere for a good reason.

Someone with basic linux skills would have already adapted the first five categories on their own, and have no need for #6.

It's ironic that this thread has missed what the current "world change" has been...which involves a different type of computing that has nothing to do with any of the listed suggestions.
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Volhout


Joined: 28 Dec 2008
Posts: 387

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 02:03    Post subject:  

jpeps wrote:

Someone with basic linux skills would have already adapted the first five categories on their own, and have no need for #6.


Yep.... definitely no USER.

But I have to admit that I am hooked to puppy for reasons mentioned. And my wife is not. This thread is for her, and koulaxizis friends, and gcmartins friends, tazoc's friends, R-S-H's friends, and nameless others.

But I am currently exploring other distro's that combine speed and snappyness with decent set of applications to replace windows for her. Currently looking at LXLE (they created what "Lubuntu should have been"). But it is huge (1.3Gbyte). Pro is that it is LXLE's MAIN DISTRO, and therefore it is supported. LTS even. Lubuntu had similar problems (missing the killer apps), but someone had the courage to pick it up.

Last edited by Volhout on Fri 23 Aug 2013, 07:00; edited 1 time in total
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 03:38    Post subject:  

Volhout wrote:


But I have to admit that I am hooked to puppy for reasons mentioned. And my wife is not. This thread is for her, and koulaxizis friends, and gcmartins friends, tazoc's friends, R-S-H's friends, and nameless others.

Yeah, and if your experience is anything like mine, they'll be looking to you to fix their windows computer. No problem getting them interested in an android device, though, but your wife will probably want you to install apps for her.
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L18L

Joined: 19 Jun 2010
Posts: 2505
Location: Burghaslach, Germany somewhere also known as "Hosla"

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 04:43    Post subject:  

Volhout wrote:
jpeps wrote:

Someone with basic linux skills would have already adapted the first five categories on their own, and have no need for #6.


Yep.... definitely no USER.


Who is USER Question
Code:
echo $USER
...and this puppy USER could remaster any puppy for the needs of his wife.
That's Puppy Wink
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oldyeller


Joined: 15 Nov 2011
Posts: 803
Location: Mishawaka IN

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 12:19    Post subject:  

L18L wrote:
Volhout wrote:
jpeps wrote:

Someone with basic linux skills would have already adapted the first five categories on their own, and have no need for #6.


Yep.... definitely no USER.


Who is USER Question
Code:
echo $USER
...and this puppy USER could remaster any puppy for the needs of his wife.
That's Puppy Wink


That is what makes puppy-puppy anyone can produce a nice puplet if they put the time into it. I enjoy puppy the it is designed so that an individual could create his own master piece. It really does not matter if no one else likes it or not as long as that person is pleased.

Just as BarryK said puppy is the way it is because thats how he likes it.

Can't please everyone, someone will fine something wrong no matter what one does.
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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5031
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 13:05    Post subject:  

Well said Volhout;
Quote:
This thread is for her, and koulaxizis friends, and gcmartins friends, tazoc's friends, R-S-H's friends, and nameless others.

This speaks of the wider audience that cares, and has valid observations, ideas, and concerns.
So many Puppy users that are a part of the community, and shouldn`t be minimalized or ignored.
These people`s importance is that of any who are here, no matter what others may think of them.
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RSH


Joined: 05 Sep 2011
Posts: 2420
Location: Germany

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 14:45    Post subject:  

Hi.

Please, don't get confused. I just could re-activate my old RSH account.

sunburnt wrote:
So many Puppy users that are a part of the community, and shouldn`t be minimalized or ignored.

Yes, this is especially true in the case of my work on the forum as well as of my work on LazY Puppy. Most of the time it has been a single German user who has made the testings as well as he did 'swallow' my 'treatments' on him while developing that whole bunch of ideas and programs.

Some might remember:

LazY Puppy 528-4, the first version ever, did already come with its SFS-Concept. It has loaded SFS-Suites (several programs in a category based/named sfs) directly by a script without to use sfs_load manually.

But:

It did not execute any application.

So, the basic idea, to refine the scripts to load the sfs first. and after that directly to execute the program was offered also by this single German user (incl. the LazY Puppy VarioMenu with hard work by himself and SFR)!

Meanwhile he did install it at his public school as main OS on 20 computers - Windows removed!

What I want to say, is: the problem is the goodness of Puppy Linux and Linux in general. The problem is on the developers side/hand.

The (Puppy Linux) developer decides what to do. If it doesn't fit into his needs he would probably not work on any suggestion made. Why should he care if it doesn't work for anyone else, as long as it works for him.

I did it and am still doing it that way!

And if I would be able to do all the things needed to be done, I would like to do the following:

- LazY Puppy architecture as the basic application handling (SFS-Concept)
- Restructuring the menu (Expert and User should be enough)
- Adding the ADRV-Concept for applications
- Adding the WDRV-Concept for Window Managers (so, the desktop sfs discussion would become real)
- Adding LazY Puppy's Personal Data SFS (this is not available in the 2.0.2-005 web version) (as mavrothal mentioned it is similar to something used in tiny core)

The above as a basic construction for each Puppy OS to produce.

Then there is some stuff in ArchPup (heard about it, did never checked) which is similar to some I did made over here for my private setup, like a file wherein are some settings defined for example like to set keyboard layout and/or path's etc.pp.

As far as I know ArchPup does this file somewhere in /root.

I do have this at boot partition, because my OS always knows its boot partition and boot directory. Using the above named file I do have directly access to files and directories at boot partition and directory inside a openbox menu pipe and am able to send them files to its related applications.

This is quite comfortable but might be too very special in front to reach/achieve common sense of a new/refined/changed development basement.

RSH (also known as R-S-H Wink )

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2013, 00:43    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:

These people`s importance is that of any who are here, no matter what others may think of them.


You may be a little late to the party in saving them from Microsoft. Microsoft is trying to save itself. Computers now command only 15% share of connected internet devices, and is rapidly declining.

Don't despair, though. There are still other areas of technology like genetic engineering, 3D printing, self-driving cars, etc.
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ahoppin

Joined: 16 May 2011
Posts: 89

PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2013, 01:20    Post subject:  

Distrowatch doesn't have a category for "light Linux," but as I type this, it lists Puppy as the #1 choice for "old computers."

Puppy must be doing something right! So what if the desktop looks a little old fashioned, like Windows 98 or 2000? I suspect that a lot of Puppy users would rather use their CPU cycles for running useful programs, not for making animated 3d icons and swooshing windows. That stuff is just "eye candy."

Personally, I *like* Puppy's vague whiff of chaos. I *like* seeing the range of different ideas that come from a diverse community of developers who aren't cat-herded into some corporate business plan.

Back when we had our choice of CP/M and MS-DOS on micros, the mantra was "pick your software, then your OS, then your hardware." We knew that it was the application software that made a computer a useful tool. That is still true today. Without a good list of useful programs, an OS is nothing.

A Puppy based on Ubuntu is fine. You can use Ubuntu's huge repository, though you might have to do a little tinkering with some of the programs. Debian would probably be just as good a base. Look around and you'll see that almost every independent developer has a binary for Ubuntu, and most have one for Debian. Slackware, I'm not so sure about - I haven't tried either Slackware or Slacko - but if it has enough software support, then it should be OK too.

Puppy has found a niche. It's an operating system for moderately knowledgable computer users who like a lean, clean, swift open source OS. It's for people who value substance over style. Many Pupsters may not want to compile their own kernels, but most probably don't mind (or might even enjoy) tinkering a little bit.

But if Puppy isn't the right Linux for you, there are hundreds of others! Go look on Distrowatch, search the web. Look at screenshots, read the forums, download them, try them. You'll find what makes you happy, I promise. Or make Puppy what you want it to be, and launch your own puplet. It's a big world out there.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying don't make suggestions. Some good ones have come up in this thread.

But as the Distrowatch ranking shows, many thousands of people like BK's vision of what Puppy should be. So, have fun with your custom puplet, feed it rich chow, make it as fat as you like. Share it with other Pupsters.

If enough of people like your puplet, fork it away from Puppy, and call it something else.

You may think you don't have the programming skills to do this, but it's not that difficult to learn them. You don't even have to learn C; most of what makes Puppy distinctive is shell scripts. Tinkering with Puppy is a great way to learn to write and modify them.

Who knows, maybe next year, your "Hungrywolf," or whatever you call it, will be #9 at Distrowatch, when Puppy is #10!

That's the right way to go about it. There's no need to fatten up BK's sleek little Puppy that so many people love.
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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5031
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2013, 09:54    Post subject:  

A simple observation and thought about Puppy in general.

If Puppy variants have the same base Puppy, then apps. will work for most all of them.
Change the base and the variant builder now has to provide special build apps. for it.
Ubuntu is going in new directions, maybe good, maybe not. But it`s a popular variant.

Most "changes" to any O.S. are the desktop environment and the users choice of apps.
So the focus is on making the apps. work very well in most of the desktop environments.
Standard Puppy is a combination of unrelated parts, making it a little difficult to deal with.
.
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Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1050

PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug 2013, 10:48    Post subject:  

sunburnt wrote:
A simple observation and thought about Puppy in general.

If Puppy variants have the same base Puppy, then apps. will work for most all of them.
Change the base and the variant builder now has to provide special build apps. for it.
Ubuntu is going in new directions, maybe good, maybe not. But it`s a popular variant.

Most "changes" to any O.S. are the desktop environment and the users choice of apps.
So the focus is on making the apps. work very well in most of the desktop environments.
Standard Puppy is a combination of unrelated parts, making it a little difficult to deal with.
.


I'd be willing to argue that the most important part of base puppy is in fact its toolchain. Different apps built with different toolchains usually wont work too well together. There is some backwards compatibility, but its not always guaranteed.
While the Desktop Enviroment is the biggest change most users see, I'd say its less a matter when it comes to compatibility. Firefox doesnt depend on the DE, nor do most apps.
The problem is once you start any divergence from something, as you add more and more libs into the mix, it gets further away and thus less compatible. Version Skew with libraries are biggest headache with linux, when trying to make a application across different versions.

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