Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Tue 25 Nov 2014, 19:00
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Off-Topic Area » Programming
Gtk sucks because...
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
Page 1 of 4 Posts_count   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Author Message
technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4379

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 06:12    Post_subject:  Gtk sucks because...  

Gnome-isms like hardcoding gnome-terminal, using gnomevfs to handle urls... (apparently they never heard of getenv for TERM / BROWSER)

Backward / Forward compatibility

Renaming superfluously

Useless functions that return a property of a struct, a constant value or the return of a single function

Really bad default properties like not being able to middleclick or scroll on a status icon or set the background image in gtkiconview ... they added code that removes functionality in those cases

Not thread friendly ... What happened to the xcb port or even cairo transition

Not pretty - have to use gtkrc and now css to make it not ugly or even ldpreload a better file chooser

Multiple different callback / handler formats makes it a pita to do default handlers ... Just type and a union of structs would allow a single form like handle(type, union, data) with switch(type) and drastically simplify glade gui interaction.

Changing default behaviors ... Ex. Gtkbuilder now requires a different function to get object names

What else am I forgetting?

_________________
Web Programming - Pet Packaging 100 & 101
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 06:32    Post_subject:  

+1
_________________
Woof Mailing List | keep the faith Cool |
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
Q5sys


Joined: 11 Dec 2008
Posts: 1073

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 06:41    Post_subject:  

Do you guys think we should start using QT in place of gtk going forward?
I'm asking speficially with respect to Puppy and the greater linux community.

_________________



Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 06:59    Post_subject:  

Pure QT puppy would be an interesting project, obviously a bit heavier though, but then compared to gtk3 (which does need css for theming, and is a nightmare) then not so.

As for lighter pups there's xlib, fltk, sdl and others. I remember Thunor jesting about an sdl-dialog, it would be right up his alley being an old school games programmer.

_________________
Woof Mailing List | keep the faith Cool |
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3972
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 07:32    Post_subject:  

Qt4 not that ugly grayish interface anymore ?
fltk was also ugly as i remember .

There are so many libraries or programs that could need some fixes it seems Crying or Very sad

curses became new curses ..

gtk-2.0 ngtk-2.0 ?

curses
curses
..
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 07:34    Post_subject:  

Karl Godt wrote:
Qt4 not that ugly grayish interface anymore ?
fltk was also ugly as i remember .

There are so many libraries or programs that could need some fixes it seems Crying or Very sad

curses became new curses ..

gtk-2.0 ngtk-2.0 ?

curses
curses
..
You need to use Slackware.. all gui are in .. dialog!
_________________
Woof Mailing List | keep the faith Cool |
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8688

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 07:51    Post_subject:  

Has gtk ever not sucked.... ? I hate working with it in C and always thought it was clumsy in appearance. One has found ways to make it palatable as have others....not sure why gnu has this tendancy towards pug ugly interfaces that make windows 95 look sophisticated.

Gtk1...perhaps life was simpler then...it certainly is faster... I even tried a gtk1 build of firefox which actually worked nicely apart from inability to run newer flashplayer... oh boo hoo.

qt4...hmm the feel i get is that they fiddle around annoying too.

win32...now there's and interface you can rely on... wonder why there was some much software built for it.

Thanks for a thread to have a rant in Very Happy

mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
amigo

Joined: 02 Apr 2007
Posts: 2278

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 10:51    Post_subject:  

techno, are you gonna finally break down now and fix & modernize gtk1 a bit for us???? LOL.

It would be easy to conclude that I love gtk1, but it has always been my choice because it's the only lightweight toolkit which has achieved nearly universal use and had lots of programs written for it.

In my next life I'm gonna concentrate on using C, so I can finally fix gtk1 so it handles bidirectional text and can use a very few functions which only came in with gtk2. I have some interesting "extensions" to gtk1 in my collection - gtkextra from the original devs, a gtk1-gnome-canvas and 'easygtk' wrapper libs for complex widgets like wizards, etc.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4379

PostPosted: Thu 22 Aug 2013, 19:46    Post_subject:  

Just to be clear Qt suffers from the same sucks plus the c++ name mangling makes it even less portable.

Mark Tyler (of mtpaint, mtcelledit) did a nice job modernizing gtk1 into mtk, but then went and gpl3d it (not even lgpl) so that killed it at least for me.

Actually gtk2 wasnt too bad until they went to cairo (wjaguar still uses 2.6 with patches for the win32 build of mtpaint iirc)

...at least the suckinezz of gtk is well documented with lots of workaround examples

Btw maybe someone can tell me why button and scroll events dont work in x11 (the source says it is "platform dependent") ... Only popup and activate for right and left clicks ... Same amount of code (or more) for 2/7 the functionality not to mention obliterating any way of doing keypress events directly.

Or why gtkiconview forcibly draws a background color with no means of using an image or making it transparent so the parent window image is used.

_________________
Web Programming - Pet Packaging 100 & 101
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5042
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 00:02    Post_subject:  

And just wait until they change it once more and half your stuff stops working yet again.
They`re all about Gimp and don`t care about much of anything else is my understanding.

A good reason for Linux stagnation, relying on unreliable dependencies. Stability now.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 02:34    Post_subject:  

technosaurus wrote:
Just to be clear Qt suffers from the same sucks plus the c++ name mangling makes it even less portable

I don't know why differing naming conventions amongst compilers would make the application less portable. QT apps are, in fact, quite portable. You're comparing QT with gtk1? hmm... Skype uses QT..maybe they should rebuild it in gtk1 cause it's not portable.

Every GUI toolkit has its pros and cons. The key is to find the right one that fits what you're trying to do....also having the experience working with a particular tool. How many years have you spent developing with QT?

I currently am enjoying Swing, because it works well with Eclipse and I already have JDK installed on my computers. Tons of libraries, automatic error checking, a variety of layout managers, gui acceleration, etc., etc., make it fun and easy to work with. Probably Fx2 is better, but the app doesn't know that. Probably many developers would prefer QT, although C++ might be getting dated at this point. Swing is definitely dated and it's not difficult to find reported bugs as with anything mildly complex in the technology world.
Quote:

just to be clear, computers suck
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Monsie


Joined: 01 Dec 2011
Posts: 633
Location: Kamloops BC Canada

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 04:18    Post_subject: Gtk sucks because...  

01micko wrote:
Karl Godt wrote:
Qt4 not that ugly grayish interface anymore ?
fltk was also ugly as i remember .

There are so many libraries or programs that could need some fixes it seems Crying or Very sad

curses became new curses ..

gtk-2.0 ngtk-2.0 ?

curses
curses
..
You need to use Slackware.. all gui are in .. dialog!


Mick,

Would that not be Xdialog?

Just checking, Smile
Monsie

_________________
My username is pronounced: "mun-see". Derived from my surname, it was my nickname throughout high school.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7841
Location: qld

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 05:06    Post_subject: Re: Gtk sucks because...  

Monsie wrote:
Mick,

Would that not be Xdialog?

Just checking, Smile
Monsie

Nope. Wink
Code:
# ldd `which dialog`|grep curses
   libncursesw.so.5 => /lib/libncursesw.so.5 (0xb76fa000)

_________________
Woof Mailing List | keep the faith Cool |
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
technosaurus


Joined: 18 May 2008
Posts: 4379

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 05:25    Post_subject:  

jpeps wrote:
technosaurus wrote:
Just to be clear Qt suffers from the same sucks plus the c++ name mangling makes it even less portable

I don't know why differing naming conventions amongst compilers would make the application less portable. QT apps are, in fact, quite portable. You're comparing QT with gtk1? hmm... Skype uses QT..maybe they should rebuild it in gtk1 cause it's not portable.

Every GUI toolkit has its pros and cons. The key is to find the right one that fits what you're trying to do....also having the experience working with a particular tool. How many years have you spent developing with QT?

I currently am enjoying Swing, because it works well with Eclipse and I already have JDK installed on my computers. Tons of libraries, automatic error checking, a variety of layout managers, gui acceleration, etc., etc., make it fun and easy to work with. Probably Fx2 is better, but the app doesn't know that. Probably many developers would prefer QT, although C++ might be getting dated at this point. Swing is definitely dated and it's not difficult to find reported bugs as with anything mildly complex in the technology world.
Quote:

just to be clear, computers suck


I dont/wont "develop" in qt, just fix crap to make it build or otherwise function if there is no c/gtk-based alternative.
Because...
Re name mangling, c++ apps dont compile like c with symbol names == function names and it breaks shit all the time... I for one dont want to rebuild my whole system any time a minor tweak is made.
and in c it is easier to find a target area of source (dont need to track classes all over just grep _something_ *)

Swing/fx arent even in the ballpark of light weight. I dont want/need the overhead of a whole vm just to draw some interactable pretty pictures. And now that llvm is stable, java is redundant altogether.

_________________
Web Programming - Pet Packaging 100 & 101
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8688

PostPosted: Fri 23 Aug 2013, 07:16    Post_subject:  

Does convenience for programmers have to mean buggy bloat for the user and constantly having to update the runtime?

Quote:
just to be clear, computers suck

hmm I would think that its software making the difference here... hardware does not bloat itself or produce buggy code or compund errors. Most machines end up in skips because of software failure or changes not hardware.

If the rants come back to gtk2 I think my biggest pain is they constantly fiddle with function names (the functions are often unchanged) breaking code.... if a developer has to spend all his time fixing his sources to work with this weeks gui incarnation then less time is spent on developing software, fixing other bugs and implementing new ideas. Again there are some amazing programs available in the windows world and a consistant gui is partially responsible.

I also think there is often obfustication of languages to make programming some sort of elitist persuit...keep the salaries high In the commercial world. I seem to recall the early home computers being pieces of hardware with a rom based operating system and the user wrote the software him or her self.

Expand GTK1...well a good starting point. Some seem to swear by wxwidgets..... perhaps it makes handling gtk2 a little bit easier..

Make your cat wear a bell on its collar... help it be a pet not vermin

have fun
mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Display_posts:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 4 Posts_count   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
 Forum index » Off-Topic Area » Programming
Jump to:  

Rules_post_cannot
Rules_reply_cannot
Rules_edit_cannot
Rules_delete_cannot
Rules_vote_cannot
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.0972s ][ Queries: 11 (0.0055s) ][ GZIP on ]