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The time now is Thu 27 Nov 2014, 11:57
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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Barry Kauler announces his retirement from Puppy
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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Karl Godt


Joined: 20 Jun 2010
Posts: 3972
Location: Kiel,Germany

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 13:30    Post subject:  

Fact is : There are not many people here to develop the Puppy core : Kernel , Toolchain and compile core programs .

Me myself is not so much interested in using other distribution's binaries .

To me the puppy-4 core is good enough , does not need newest GLIBC !
I even start to use gcc version 3.4.6 on it Razz
So far have upgraded GTK-2.0 to version 2.19.7 now .
Still using the 2.6.30 series kernel , want to upgrade it to 2.6.31 because that would show my USB-3G-Modem's Sim card and integrated micro-SD-Card slot.

If anybody is interested in Up/Downgrading Puppy-4.3.x , send me a private message !

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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 533
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 15:36    Post subject: Reply  

tronkel wrote:
Iguleder wrote:

Quote:
I like the terminology of "teams" better:


Terminology is only terminology - a linguistic concept.

Barry's impending retirement has implications for the future of Puppy Linux that raises some questions that are even more fundamental than the management style of the project. Sure, there will have to be some sort of team/community structure in place in order to create an ISO called Puppy Reborn or some such other similar title.

As far as can be established, there is no Barry Kauler V2 walking around on planet Earth. Realistically there is probably then no chance that anyone would be able to step into the shoes of Barry V1 and carry on as before.

Would it not be better to simply accept this reality and start a completely new base for Puppy Linux from scratch? Any prospective Barry 2 would need to be a developer who has previously created a Linux distro from a clean sheet - just as Barry V1 did with the original Puppy. The only thing that would remain of Puppy original, would be its philosophy of "keep it minimalist, smart and full-featured" - in other words, a completely reborn Puppy Linux that Barry 2 plus his project members would be comfortable to work on and develop further..

The reason I say this, is that Barry V1 is really the only person alive on the planet who, is in the position of being able maintain the base of the present Puppy and also carry on with the truly creative ideas that would be required to take this distro into the foreseeable future.

Anyone whose CV fits the job description of Barry V2 please step up and make yourself known!


I very much admire the work that BK did but he was not tbe Messiah I believe that a more community focused model can be used to get things going and this ridiculous who is going to be the next Barry is just that ridiculous it shold not be on the shoulders of one person but be a shared responsibiity even if your just a tester so please can we get away from the BK was God kind thinking that is harmful to the future of Puppy if he had suddenly been run over by a bus where would we be then.

So lets learn a lesson from this BK is a genius no doubt and I for one admire his brilliance but relying on one person is plain silly and that is an important lesson to be learnt.

Whether or not it is teams or whatever if Puppy is say to use an analogy a body anybody can be a valuable part of that body - last thing we need is people suffering burn out.

Finally please don't take this posting as direspect for BK because I really admire him but as I have said an important lesson here is development needn't falter because the father as people put it has left, it can be a team/commitee/whatever term effort.
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 533
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 16:17    Post subject: Yep  

Karl Godt wrote:
Fact is : There are not many people here to develop the Puppy core : Kernel , Toolchain and compile core programs .

Me myself is not so much interested in using other distribution's binaries .

To me the puppy-4 core is good enough , does not need newest GLIBC !
I even start to use gcc version 3.4.6 on it Razz
So far have upgraded GTK-2.0 to version 2.19.7 now .
Still using the 2.6.30 series kernel , want to upgrade it to 2.6.31 because that would show my USB-3G-Modem's Sim card and integrated micro-SD-Card slot.

If anybody is interested in Up/Downgrading Puppy-4.3.x , send me a private message !


I agree Karl 4 Series could be still a good base for development with more modern kernels.

Need to be aware of bad code in some of the "Buntu" releases being inherited.
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sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5042
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 17:43    Post subject:  

I`m not aware of any team that works close with Barry, but if there is, then these are the guys.
Other than that there`s a number of guys who have been variant builders for a very long time.

I say branches because there`s other ways of doing the O.S. thing than Puppy does it.
# Example: I`ve said for a long time that a union is an unnecessary complication.
And there`s still no PXE boot setup in the standard Puppy. Many improvements to be made.

# The part I left out above is: A dev. community is how Debian and Ubuntu does it so well.
.
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 533
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Wed 25 Sep 2013, 23:40    Post subject:  

I hope people were not offended by my words but I care passionately about Puppy Linux and I want to see it suceed. It is so unique in its coding which makes so much more adaptable than anything else around.
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darkcity


Joined: 23 May 2010
Posts: 2479
Location: near here

PostPosted: Thu 26 Sep 2013, 08:42    Post subject:  

Quote:
So lets learn a lesson from this BK is a genius no doubt and I for one admire his brilliance but relying on one person is plain silly and that is an important lesson to be learnt.

+1, baring in mind that some teams can be less effective than particular individuals

Quote:
# Example: I`ve said for a long time that a union is an unnecessary complication.
And there`s still no PXE boot setup in the standard Puppy. Many improvements to be made.

I have mixed feelings about Union/AUFS. It certainly confuses newcomers, however it makes Puppy flexible and is one of the unique things about it.

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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1924
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Thu 26 Sep 2013, 09:04    Post subject: Re: Yep  

darry1966 wrote:
Karl Godt wrote:
Fact is : There are not many people here to develop the Puppy core : Kernel , Toolchain and compile core programs .

Me myself is not so much interested in using other distribution's binaries .

To me the puppy-4 core is good enough , does not need newest GLIBC !
I even start to use gcc version 3.4.6 on it Razz
So far have upgraded GTK-2.0 to version 2.19.7 now .
Still using the 2.6.30 series kernel , want to upgrade it to 2.6.31 because that would show my USB-3G-Modem's Sim card and integrated micro-SD-Card slot.

If anybody is interested in Up/Downgrading Puppy-4.3.x , send me a private message !


I agree Karl 4 Series could be still a good base for development with more modern kernels.

Need to be aware of bad code in some of the "Buntu" releases being inherited.


Puppy 4.3 doesn't support most GPUs from 2010 and on, UEFI, Wayland, GTK 3, Qt 5 and much more.

It's old! It's great for the hardware it was designed to work on (PCs made until 2009). What you offer sounds to me like "let's use Windows 98, it is good".

By the way - we should replace Aufs with overlayfs.

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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 533
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 26 Sep 2013, 16:12    Post subject: 4.31/4.32X  

Ok I get the fact its old. However I would like to politely ask you as a Dev why it can't be upgraded to support these new GPU's and have a newer a kernel - is it a limitation of T2???

I am not talking about leaving it as is I'm saying as a base to use as for something new if it can be done then it will support older hardware and new. Afterall other issues like GTK etc can be easily compiled and updated so could it have an updated Xorg etc or is it totally impossible?????

Again I'm asking politely and would like to know not just that it is old.
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1924
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Thu 26 Sep 2013, 17:13    Post subject: Re: 4.31/4.32X  

darry1966 wrote:
Ok I get the fact its old. However I would like to politely ask you as a Dev why it can't be upgraded to support these new GPU's and have a newer a kernel - is it a limitation of T2???


It consists of many old packages. The kernel is responsible for its bad hardware support, but the whole graphics stack (all the way from libdrm, Mesa and DRI2 drivers to GTK) is the source of its poor GPU support.

Upgrading all these packages is a complex task - so complex it isn't worth it. You're better do a fresh T2 build with recent packages.

darry1966 wrote:
I am not talking about leaving it as is I'm saying as a base to use as for something new if it can be done then it will support older hardware and new. Afterall other issues like GTK etc can be easily compiled and updated so could it have an updated Xorg etc or is it totally impossible?????


Supporting both old and new hardware is pretty much impossible. Drivers for old hardware become deprecated, abandoned or just get dropped, while recent applications depend on a recent graphics stack.

This is true for both the kernel (i.e old PCI cards) and the graphics stack (i.e Nvidia drivers for RIVA TNT2), so supporting both means one operating system with two, completely different kernels and graphics stacks. Because things like recent versions of GTK won't work against an old X server (like that of Puppy 4.3), it means you'll have to replace the applications with old (e.g GTK 2) ones, too ... so you get two operating systems.

To sum it up: if you want a Puppy for old hardware, use an old version of Puppy (or a recent one, with horribly outdated packages). Otherwise, use the latest.

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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 533
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 26 Sep 2013, 17:24    Post subject:  

Thank you for your reply and taking the time to answer it is appreciated.
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Deacon


Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 65

PostPosted: Thu 26 Sep 2013, 17:47    Post subject: So long as we have this forum and community, the Puppy lives  

simargl8 wrote:
If Puppy Linux is so perfect as you claim then why is Barry Kauler quitting, he's not going to
"retire" as claimed in title of this thread, he is actually switching focus to phone-desktop
all-in-one hardware and that read between the lines, means he's abandoning Puppy Linux.


I don't talk much here (I'm one of those barely contributing, always here folks), but I think it's about time I said something I wanted to say here months ago, but didn't feel was appropriate. I feel it is now.

This group has always demonstrated that they are capable of amazing things. I am grateful to Barry for what he created-- and only part of that is software. A bigger part of that is the community he created. An anarchic group of hackers and computer geeks who have proven they are up to the demands of the ideals of Puppy linux with respin after respin, improvement after improvement.

I made a simple respin of Ubuntu called Colorwheel that I felt I had to abandon after a single release because it started to become popular-- and I was maintaining it alone, working on my second version with a nice touch-friendly interface when I just gave up, installed Puppy to the hard drive, and joined this forum regularly.

I'd like to take a moment to tell you why.

After crashing my system again developing Colorwheel (having not made a cent but having lost money in a time my family was pretty broke), I was reaching for my loading my "Puppy safety drive" when I thought "maybe I should keep looking for a new base for Colorwheel". I found that an old distro I had seen from my youth had miraculously survived, and rushed to try it out.

The results were more than disappointing. I felt like the Linux world had passed the code by; it was like playing with an ancient system even though I'd just downloaded it. And the window manager fried my netbook. It was, by and large, unusable. I plugged on, trying to see how software was installed (limited rpm installs, or compile). Whoever was on the forum was genuinely helpful-- and alone.

As I reviewed the forum I realized it was a "revived" distro, and that many people trying it had questions. One person was answering. And in a sudden flash of clarity, I saw my future-- and it scared me.

The next day I quit and decided that going lone-wolf doesn't help anyone in the Linux world and it was time to join a community as opposed to failing at creating one. It took all of fifteen minutes to decide.

Another netbook meltdown and Puppy boot later, I did once again that which I did for a few days a year before-- I downloaded Puppy to the hard drive. I then crafted a goodbye letter on the Colorwheel site explaining myself, without mentioning my experience. I was originally going to put my explanation here and link it, as a recommendation (I simply included a link and recommendation to the site)-- because I wanted people to have what I knew was here, and what I wanted for myself, and I am sure Barry wanted and wants as well-- a knowledgeable, caring community that contributes well past a man's lifetime.

The difference is that he succeeded where most Linux devs fail-- he was able to bring people together with a great idea, and, well everyone loves dogs (except that Catguy but he still loves the system ideals).

Never have we seen a distro encourage respins to the point of giving it its own section. And sometimes respin ideas make it to the core code. But more importantly, Puppy is a simple but elegant design.

So I don't understand how anyone here is talking about abandoning it because Barry is retiring. He's even built the backend by which future Puppies can continue to be made (remember Woof, folks?). God forbid he passes on, but every man's appointed to pass on, and I'm grateful Barry's given us a chance to hash this out now while he can still help us with direction.

Find the libraries, find the programs in the system, and whoever uses Woof can just do a new system update and add the deps and programs. And then, new Puppy version!

For a system called Puppy Linux, Barry has bred a lot of Puppies and many of us know how to do the same. It's as simple as organizing a project group, or more simply, someone who knows how to use Woof to make versions based on the base distro updates. I know there are folks who know how to do that. Occasionally update the various programs.

Will everyone be satisfied? Nope. Wink And you know what we do here when we aren't 100% satisfied?

Thank you, Barry, for making arguably the most sane GNU/Linux distro around. I don't know about you people, but I plan to breed another Puppy using XPrecise (maybe I'm working on another Colorwheel-- ok fine I destroyed my development drive again; it was looking like a 32-bit distro that made FatDog look relatively thin. Good thing I finally have Puppy on my hard drive so my computer's fine).

As for the rest of us: I vote we have an experiment.
EDIT: This is apparently being done already with a transition group. So that's good.
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2670
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 26 Sep 2013, 18:46    Post subject: Re: So long as we have this forum and community, the Puppy lives  

Deacon wrote:
...and I am sure Barry wanted and wants as well-- a knowledgeable, caring community that contributes well past a man's lifetime.

The difference is that he succeeded where most Linux devs fail-- he was able to bring people together with a great idea


I just want to put in a good word for John Murga too, and his ongoing support of this forum. As well as Barry's efforts, the community is able to exist because this forum has reached a critical mass - both in terms of members but also in terms of quantity / quality of information available.

It scares me that the collected wisdom of lots of puppy contributors could one day be lost if John Murga goes under a bus.

I also want to commend John for allowing such a wide range of (sometimes offensive) viewpoints and behaviours to exist here. It truly is a community - warts and all. I don't think puppy would be the same without it...
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darry1966

Joined: 26 Feb 2012
Posts: 533
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 26 Sep 2013, 19:58    Post subject: Thankyou to John Murga and Deacon  

Yes I would like to thank John Murga as well he does an awesome job as part of the team. Thank you Deacon for sharing and summing up the way I personally feel - Puppy = open source = Community = Team
not just one man and I for one don't want to abandon it - it is awesome.

It is worth working on. I'm no coder not by a long stretch but I genuinly want to help users like myself to have a great working OS on their machines so I say the past was nice but I want to continue on as part of a community it isn't about keeping what you have all to yourself but about sharing - old RMS said it well about helping your neighbour.
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cthisbear

Joined: 29 Jan 2006
Posts: 3454
Location: Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Fri 27 Sep 2013, 01:42    Post subject:  

The last 3 comments have been well thought out.

greengeek...darry1966 ...Deacon

"""""""""

" I also want to commend John for allowing such a wide range
of (sometimes offensive) viewpoints and behaviours to
exist here.

It truly is a community - warts and all.
I don't think puppy would be the same without it..."

Is that for my obituary >>gg???

::::::::::

For myself Puppy just makes me smile.

When I boot Puppy up I smile.

When I fix Windows problems >> same again.

When I hear detractors...well I just laugh.

Congrats to Barrry....and hello to John Murga.

I salute the past and present on this forum....too many great names
who have helped out...released community and their own Pups...
and have generally made this place a great site to visit.

Puppy will live on because it is a special beast.

And has always had special people getting it to work.

Chris.
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greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2670
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 27 Sep 2013, 03:51    Post subject:  

cthisbear wrote:
Is that for my obituary >>gg???

Not intentionally! But then maybe you've been a bit rude in posts I haven't seen yet.... (What do they say - "if the cap fits...")

I have noticed you using the words "Windows" and "Microsoft" at times - thats pretty offensive!
Very Happy
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