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The time now is Fri 01 Aug 2014, 20:54
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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Barry Kauler announces his retirement from Puppy
Moderators: Flash, Ian, JohnMurga
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tronkel


Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 1101
Location: Vienna Austria

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 11:52    Post subject:  

Puppy has never really been a cohesive community - because it didn't have to be cohesive. Barry was always there to override any lack of cohesiveness on the part of the community.

The situation that Puppy finds itself in now cannot surely be a surprise to anyone though. Any project where the leader is the de-facto sole developer and decision maker is in danger of disappearing if the leader is no longer there.

In the case of Barry, there exists no one who can realistically replace him. Only he can maintain the Woof scripts that lie at the centre of Puppy's build environment. Same is true of other scripts as well.

Any replacement for Barry would have to be someone who is as good at Bash scripting as he is. With this tool, Barry has used every trick in the Linux book - moreso than any other Linux distro - to come up with the implementations that makes Puppy so unique in the Linux firmament. Think Mutisession, frugal install, PPM system, Xorgwizard Puppy universal installer etc. - and then there are the patched kernels

Sure, the PC world is going downhill for various reasons - but this sector is not going to completely disappear any time soon.

In the shorter term, those who teach and support users with Linux are going to see a big hole that used to be occupied by Puppy. It's going to be missed.

A concentrated and very focussed effort is going to have to be made if we want our favourite Linux tool to continue to be available to us. Time to get your thinking caps on guys (and gals).

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 12:03    Post subject:  

tronkel wrote:


In the case of Barry, there exists no one who can realistically replace him. Only he can maintain the Woof scripts that lie at the centre of Puppy's build environment. Same is true of other scripts as well.

Any replacement for Barry would have to be someone who is as good at Bash scripting as he is. With this tool, Barry has used every trick in the Linux book


The available tools for UI are quite limited, and have moved on. It's far more fun to develop on android and java because you can do so much more real time stuff....beside that fact that your code is going to run on everything. In Puppy, you quickly learn that different versions lack things like gtkdialog updates, or they use a different naming system..rendering a lot of errors.
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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 12:27    Post subject:  

Quote:
Sure, the PC world is going downhill for various reasons - but this sector is not going to completely disappear any time soon.

I'm not sure I'd call it downhill. It's going through major change for sure. The devices are getting smaller and more power efficient, which is not downhill but is rather positive all around. I can well imagine Arm desktop PC's that cost a lot less, take up less room, and have capabilities that X86 can't hope to match and that make tablets and smartphones look like toys too.

Quote:
The killer is instant access to a million apps and the end of having to compile. The most controversial issue on Puppy has always been the repository...how to handle dependencies (static vs dynamic apps), including apt-get, etc. The concept of woof becomes outdated with a single repository of apps that work on all devices.

That's not neccessarily "the" killer, but it's a factor. There is a growing number of developers who are questioning the wisdom of using shared libraries at all actually, especially in light of the drastically falling cost of storage. But there are a lot of headaches with dynamic loading that cause problems for newbies and advanced users alike.

A single platform is something that could (and has in the past) become a nightmare. While I admire Android I prefer mainstream Linux and BSD. I also see a lot of the "apps" on Google Play and whatnot as toys. Linux has a lot of great powerful applications. Many of them have no hope of running on Android due to the limitations imposed by the Bionic C library. It's locked down by design. Good for smartphones and tablets where the lockdown helps protect the average user from screwing their machine up. Bad for the growth of powerful computing tools. For anything beyond basic web surfing and communication Linux will probably always kick Androids ass.

And Java? Really? Where did that come from?

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 12:56    Post subject:  

Nathan F wrote:
For anything beyond basic web surfing and communication Linux will probably always kick Androids ass.

And Java? Really? Where did that come from?


Yeah, really. I've been using Java for some time with Puppy linux..they run on everything and quickly on all but ancient computers. (Java has gone through a lot of development in the last several years).

Android is based in Java. The user base for devices so far has been largely recreational, so there are many gaming apps, etc. The apps themselves are far more sophisticated than what's available for linux. There's also an ever expanding use of android devices for professional use, so the available software is already far more sophisticated than for linux...particularly Puppy linux. I'm guessing you don't have much experience with an android device, or you'd be blown away by what you can do. I currently use my smartphone for all my case management at the office, simply dictating in case notes, etc. I have a Bluetooth keyboard, but rarely use it anymore.
Quote:

Speed: Bionic is designed for CPUs at relatively low clock frequencies.
Bionic lacks many features found in full libc implementations, such as wide character and C++ exception handling support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionic_%28software%29
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zigbert


Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 5654
Location: Valåmoen, Norway

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 16:55    Post subject:  

Hello, I am zigbert.
I have contributed some code-lines to Puppy.
A rather simple solution for Puppy/Woof's future could be:

    * Contributors could maintain their own code in the repo/woof (like my pBurn).
    * Contributors have access to a woof-transit-area. Updates could be uploaded here. If accepted/tested by (ie.) 2 other contributors, the code goes into woof.

Last edited by zigbert on Fri 04 Oct 2013, 17:24; edited 1 time in total
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 17:23    Post subject:  

zigbert wrote:
Hello, I am zigbert.
I have contributed some code-lines to Puppy.
A rather simple solution for the woof's future could be:

    * Contributors could maintain their own code in woof (like my pBurn), it would always be up-to-date. We could also set up maintainers for compiling external packages.
    * Contributors have access to a woof-transit-area. Updates could be uploaded here. If accepted/tested by (ie.) 2 other contributors, the code goes into woof.


I think you have to be in the political elite to make it to woof. Meanwhile, it's difficult to test on a lot of different distros with differing naming conventions, versions, etc.

BTW/ I haven't used CD's in almost a decade
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raffy

Joined: 25 May 2005
Posts: 4759
Location: Manila

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 20:13    Post subject: skill and time  

I guess "Barry Kauler" in the context of Puppy Linux means "having both skill and time" to build a distro. A good current example of devs who can do this are Kirk and James for Fatdog64, Micko for Slacko and Prit and Runt for Macpup. Nathan F has done this for Grafpup, and Jemimah for Puppeee and Saluki.

Whether one or a few of them can survive the available time factor is something that can be known only later. James appears to have quite a momentum.

There are always users who would prefer non-commercial builds of Linux, and would support devs who are building such (at least in building and testing, financial support will be a plus).

Some devs would use their own build system while others would use Woof. Those who choose to continue with Woof will be following Barry's path - this is an easy path to follow, merely continuing what Barry has been doing. Zigbert seems to know his way in this path. I guess that the Puppy coming out of this build system will be the "community version".

With many free resources available for development, we should simply let developers be and not worry about forming rules or committees around them. Let them build their unique creation and (EDIT: we) offer support through testing and donating.

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Last edited by raffy on Fri 04 Oct 2013, 23:18; edited 1 time in total
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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 21:02    Post subject:  

Grafpup took up way too much of my time. It cut into my already failing marriage and the time I should have been spending on my kids. Personally, not willing to go to that place again (maintaining an entire distro that is). I've re-set my priorities in the intervening years.

If I saw a concerted effort to maintain Woof I might contribute, however.

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Sat 05 Oct 2013, 00:26    Post subject:  

Nathan F wrote:
Grafpup took up way too much of my time.

Yeah..It's a creative process, and it has to take over your life. I think
raffy summed it up beautifully:

raffy wrote:

With many free resources available for development, we should simply let developers be and not worry about forming rules or committees around them. Let them build their unique creation and (EDIT: we) offer support through testing and donating.

+1
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Lobster
Official Crustacean


Joined: 04 May 2005
Posts: 15117
Location: Paradox Realm

PostPosted: Sat 05 Oct 2013, 04:26    Post subject:  

Hi guys, Very Happy

I read all your posts with interest. I am using voice recognition to type this post. Very easy to do and works well. I am not using the mouse. I use Puppy Linux a little but not that much at the moment. I am using a tablet, which originally was used to help with the Puppy doacracy.
I have learned a lot using a tablet. For example I have a bluetooth keyboard that extends functionality and many fine apps.

Anyway . . .

Puppy continues by developers doing, supporters and infrastructure builders, documenters, CMS, question answering, testing, Wiki building and so on.

Barry did and does. Long live doacracy. That is the community. Those are the resourceful resources.

Who is in charge of the doacracy? Those that do. Cool

Anyway just dropped by to say hi. Very Happy

Incidentally we all do great. Puppy will do just fine. Woof. Woof. Smile

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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Sat 05 Oct 2013, 10:44    Post subject:  

DoOcracy

"Democracy. In a democracy, everyone has a say in what gets done. In a do-ocracy, everyone does jobs that they think need to be done, without everyone’s input."

"Open Source Software. Typically, Open Source development groups care less about qualifications, age, and location than how much and what quality of work people submit."

http://www.communitywiki.org/DoOcracy
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Sun 06 Oct 2013, 04:38    Post subject:  

Lobster wrote:
Hi guys, Very Happy

I read all your posts with interest. I am using voice recognition to type this post. Very easy to do and works well. I am not using the mouse. I use Puppy Linux a little but not that much at the moment. I am using a tablet, which originally was used to help with the Puppy doacracy.
I have learned a lot using a tablet.

Interesting that nobody really knows in advance how an innovation like the tablet will actually get used until it's out there. I was looking at some old Steve Jobs videos from the 70's, where he was amazed at what people were doing with an Apple 2. At the time, he felt that the Apple 2 would never become outdated, because it contained all the power and features that anyone would ever need. There's a generation of younger people that probably will never use a mouse.
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jpeps

Joined: 31 May 2008
Posts: 3220

PostPosted: Sun 06 Oct 2013, 16:28    Post subject:  

Another game changer: printing. So now printer manufactures like HP install themselves onto cloud services (google cloud) in the initial setup. I just bought an HP OfficeJet 6100 eprinter for $70 that prints from all my devices. As Steve Jobs often noted, the user shouldn't have to know anything.
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2778
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Sun 06 Oct 2013, 17:54    Post subject:  

jpeps wrote:
As Steve Jobs often noted, the user shouldn't have to know anything.


I (respectfully) profoundly disagree. In the earlier days of PCs, if you had one you knew what you were doing. Period. There wasn't much choice.

Now people don't want to learn anything -- even how to properly operate a computer that they depend on for daily tasks of significant importance. The result is people who have NO idea what they are doing and find new ways to be dumb with technology every single day (and I'm being kind there).

If you don't have the foggiest clue what's inside the box and you could care less about learning, don't use it. It's a dangerous piece of equipment, like any other power tool, just in different ways. In some ways it's worse. Viruses and other malware. Identity theft. Scams. The potential ruination of one's electronic (and, occasionally, physical) life. If you don't know what you're doing, the bottom line is that you WILL get hurt. It's a matter of time.

I'm not saying that you have to be educated (notice I didn't say "smart", that's different!) enough to run a tech shop -- but I am saying that you should have an approximate knowledge of what's under the hood and should be comfortable with some very basic maintenance...

Under-the-hood stuff...
What a CPU is and what it does. Difference between RAM/memory and HDD. The term "system unit" or "box" -- the big, roughly rectangular thing that says DELL on it is NOT A MODEM! Knowing where to plug things in and approximately the functions the plugs/sockets perform. What a web browser is and approximately why Internet Explorer is not a good one. Understanding enough technobabble to read and understand specifications in Best Buy as well as those presented by the OS itself. In other words -- basically the bare minimum to avoid what I call "Selectric Syndrome" -- someone who really would be better off using a typewriter.

Basic maintenance...
The ability to record and describe common error messages and other problems one tends to experience with a PC. Being comfortable with opening the case and spraying "canned air" around once every couple months (sooner if you have a pet) to avoid dust buildup -- and knowledge of why that's important (as well as why spraying that stuff in a laptop fan inlet/outlet is not very smart). The ability to do VERY basic repairs -- replacing RAM, optical/floppy drives, internal card readers, hard drives (only where a reinstall of the OS is not necessary or extremely simple), and power supplies. The ability to run basic diagnostic software (Memtest86+ and/or HDTune Free when needed, and antivirus/antimalware programs on a regular basis).

That's what I think is the most basic set of knowledge one should have. If you're in the "I know how to press a power button" crowd, press and hold it until the computer turns off, walk away, and please don't come back... if you do come back you'll only be asking for trouble.

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Nathan F


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 1760
Location: Wadsworth, OH (occasionally home)

PostPosted: Sun 06 Oct 2013, 18:40    Post subject:  

Have kids? Every day I have to solve issues like "the internet only works at home" (she wasn't bothering to connect to another network with the damn tablet, didn't know she had to) or "this thing won't open my file" (she hadn't installed a word processor at all and just kept clicking on the doc file in her email attachment, causing 12 copies to be downloaded and fail to open).

I bought the kid a tablet so she'd stop complaining that flash crap wasn't working on the PC and I'd be able to use my computer the way I want to. It gracefully solved those problems, but I'm still not off the hook for tech support. She is learning, but it's gonna take some time. And this kid carries straight A's without having to work at it in the slightest.

Expecting the average user to know how a computer works at even a basic level is wishful thinking. Entertainment has moved largely online and that migration will continue. The internet has gone from a vehicle for the free exchange of information to a playground for the masses. I don't like it but I'm not kidding myself about it either. The genie is out of the bottle. It's geared towards the lowest common denominator now. That's not going to change. Get over it. Move on.

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