Barry Kauler announces his retirement from Puppy

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tronkel
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#91 Post by tronkel »

Puppy has never really been a cohesive community - because it didn't have to be cohesive. Barry was always there to override any lack of cohesiveness on the part of the community.

The situation that Puppy finds itself in now cannot surely be a surprise to anyone though. Any project where the leader is the de-facto sole developer and decision maker is in danger of disappearing if the leader is no longer there.

In the case of Barry, there exists no one who can realistically replace him. Only he can maintain the Woof scripts that lie at the centre of Puppy's build environment. Same is true of other scripts as well.

Any replacement for Barry would have to be someone who is as good at Bash scripting as he is. With this tool, Barry has used every trick in the Linux book - moreso than any other Linux distro - to come up with the implementations that makes Puppy so unique in the Linux firmament. Think Mutisession, frugal install, PPM system, Xorgwizard Puppy universal installer etc. - and then there are the patched kernels

Sure, the PC world is going downhill for various reasons - but this sector is not going to completely disappear any time soon.

In the shorter term, those who teach and support users with Linux are going to see a big hole that used to be occupied by Puppy. It's going to be missed.

A concentrated and very focussed effort is going to have to be made if we want our favourite Linux tool to continue to be available to us. Time to get your thinking caps on guys (and gals).
Life is too short to spend it in front of a computer

jpeps
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#92 Post by jpeps »

tronkel wrote:
In the case of Barry, there exists no one who can realistically replace him. Only he can maintain the Woof scripts that lie at the centre of Puppy's build environment. Same is true of other scripts as well.

Any replacement for Barry would have to be someone who is as good at Bash scripting as he is. With this tool, Barry has used every trick in the Linux book
The available tools for UI are quite limited, and have moved on. It's far more fun to develop on android and java because you can do so much more real time stuff....beside that fact that your code is going to run on everything. In Puppy, you quickly learn that different versions lack things like gtkdialog updates, or they use a different naming system..rendering a lot of errors.

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Nathan F
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#93 Post by Nathan F »

Sure, the PC world is going downhill for various reasons - but this sector is not going to completely disappear any time soon.
I'm not sure I'd call it downhill. It's going through major change for sure. The devices are getting smaller and more power efficient, which is not downhill but is rather positive all around. I can well imagine Arm desktop PC's that cost a lot less, take up less room, and have capabilities that X86 can't hope to match and that make tablets and smartphones look like toys too.
The killer is instant access to a million apps and the end of having to compile. The most controversial issue on Puppy has always been the repository...how to handle dependencies (static vs dynamic apps), including apt-get, etc. The concept of woof becomes outdated with a single repository of apps that work on all devices.
That's not neccessarily "the" killer, but it's a factor. There is a growing number of developers who are questioning the wisdom of using shared libraries at all actually, especially in light of the drastically falling cost of storage. But there are a lot of headaches with dynamic loading that cause problems for newbies and advanced users alike.

A single platform is something that could (and has in the past) become a nightmare. While I admire Android I prefer mainstream Linux and BSD. I also see a lot of the "apps" on Google Play and whatnot as toys. Linux has a lot of great powerful applications. Many of them have no hope of running on Android due to the limitations imposed by the Bionic C library. It's locked down by design. Good for smartphones and tablets where the lockdown helps protect the average user from screwing their machine up. Bad for the growth of powerful computing tools. For anything beyond basic web surfing and communication Linux will probably always kick Androids ass.

And Java? Really? Where did that come from?
Bring on the locusts ...

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#94 Post by jpeps »

Nathan F wrote:For anything beyond basic web surfing and communication Linux will probably always kick Androids ass.

And Java? Really? Where did that come from?
Yeah, really. I've been using Java for some time with Puppy linux..they run on everything and quickly on all but ancient computers. (Java has gone through a lot of development in the last several years).

Android is based in Java. The user base for devices so far has been largely recreational, so there are many gaming apps, etc. The apps themselves are far more sophisticated than what's available for linux. There's also an ever expanding use of android devices for professional use, so the available software is already far more sophisticated than for linux...particularly Puppy linux. I'm guessing you don't have much experience with an android device, or you'd be blown away by what you can do. I currently use my smartphone for all my case management at the office, simply dictating in case notes, etc. I have a Bluetooth keyboard, but rarely use it anymore.
Speed: Bionic is designed for CPUs at relatively low clock frequencies.
Bionic lacks many features found in full libc implementations, such as wide character and C++ exception handling support.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bionic_%28software%29

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zigbert
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#95 Post by zigbert »

Hello, I am zigbert.
I have contributed some code-lines to Puppy.
A rather simple solution for Puppy/Woof's future could be:
  • * Contributors could maintain their own code in the repo/woof (like my pBurn).
    * Contributors have access to a woof-transit-area. Updates could be uploaded here. If accepted/tested by (ie.) 2 other contributors, the code goes into woof.
Last edited by zigbert on Fri 04 Oct 2013, 21:24, edited 1 time in total.

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#96 Post by jpeps »

zigbert wrote:Hello, I am zigbert.
I have contributed some code-lines to Puppy.
A rather simple solution for the woof's future could be:
  • * Contributors could maintain their own code in woof (like my pBurn), it would always be up-to-date. We could also set up maintainers for compiling external packages.
    * Contributors have access to a woof-transit-area. Updates could be uploaded here. If accepted/tested by (ie.) 2 other contributors, the code goes into woof.
I think you have to be in the political elite to make it to woof. Meanwhile, it's difficult to test on a lot of different distros with differing naming conventions, versions, etc.

BTW/ I haven't used CD's in almost a decade

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skill and time

#97 Post by raffy »

I guess "Barry Kauler" in the context of Puppy Linux means "having both skill and time" to build a distro. A good current example of devs who can do this are Kirk and James for Fatdog64, Micko for Slacko and Prit and Runt for Macpup. Nathan F has done this for Grafpup, and Jemimah for Puppeee and Saluki.

Whether one or a few of them can survive the available time factor is something that can be known only later. James appears to have quite a momentum.

There are always users who would prefer non-commercial builds of Linux, and would support devs who are building such (at least in building and testing, financial support will be a plus).

Some devs would use their own build system while others would use Woof. Those who choose to continue with Woof will be following Barry's path - this is an easy path to follow, merely continuing what Barry has been doing. Zigbert seems to know his way in this path. I guess that the Puppy coming out of this build system will be the "community version".

With many free resources available for development, we should simply let developers be and not worry about forming rules or committees around them. Let them build their unique creation and (EDIT: we) offer support through testing and donating.
Last edited by raffy on Sat 05 Oct 2013, 03:18, edited 1 time in total.
Puppy user since Oct 2004. Want FreeOffice? [url=http://puppylinux.info/topic/freeoffice-2012-sfs]Get the sfs (English only)[/url].

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Nathan F
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#98 Post by Nathan F »

Grafpup took up way too much of my time. It cut into my already failing marriage and the time I should have been spending on my kids. Personally, not willing to go to that place again (maintaining an entire distro that is). I've re-set my priorities in the intervening years.

If I saw a concerted effort to maintain Woof I might contribute, however.
Bring on the locusts ...

jpeps
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#99 Post by jpeps »

Nathan F wrote:Grafpup took up way too much of my time.
Yeah..It's a creative process, and it has to take over your life. I think
raffy summed it up beautifully:
raffy wrote: With many free resources available for development, we should simply let developers be and not worry about forming rules or committees around them. Let them build their unique creation and (EDIT: we) offer support through testing and donating.
+1

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#100 Post by Lobster »

Hi guys, :D

I read all your posts with interest. I am using voice recognition to type this post. Very easy to do and works well. I am not using the mouse. I use Puppy Linux a little but not that much at the moment. I am using a tablet, which originally was used to help with the Puppy doacracy.
I have learned a lot using a tablet. For example I have a bluetooth keyboard that extends functionality and many fine apps.

Anyway . . .

Puppy continues by developers doing, supporters and infrastructure builders, documenters, CMS, question answering, testing, Wiki building and so on.

Barry did and does. Long live doacracy. That is the community. Those are the resourceful resources.

Who is in charge of the doacracy? Those that do. 8)

Anyway just dropped by to say hi. :D

Incidentally we all do great. Puppy will do just fine. Woof. Woof. :)
Puppy Raspup 8.2Final 8)
Puppy Links Page http://www.smokey01.com/bruceb/puppy.html :D

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#101 Post by jpeps »

DoOcracy

"Democracy. In a democracy, everyone has a say in what gets done. In a do-ocracy, everyone does jobs that they think need to be done, without everyone’s input."

"Open Source Software. Typically, Open Source development groups care less about qualifications, age, and location than how much and what quality of work people submit."

http://www.communitywiki.org/DoOcracy

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#102 Post by jpeps »

Lobster wrote:Hi guys, :D

I read all your posts with interest. I am using voice recognition to type this post. Very easy to do and works well. I am not using the mouse. I use Puppy Linux a little but not that much at the moment. I am using a tablet, which originally was used to help with the Puppy doacracy.
I have learned a lot using a tablet.
Interesting that nobody really knows in advance how an innovation like the tablet will actually get used until it's out there. I was looking at some old Steve Jobs videos from the 70's, where he was amazed at what people were doing with an Apple 2. At the time, he felt that the Apple 2 would never become outdated, because it contained all the power and features that anyone would ever need. There's a generation of younger people that probably will never use a mouse.

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#103 Post by jpeps »

Another game changer: printing. So now printer manufactures like HP install themselves onto cloud services (google cloud) in the initial setup. I just bought an HP OfficeJet 6100 eprinter for $70 that prints from all my devices. As Steve Jobs often noted, the user shouldn't have to know anything.

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#104 Post by starhawk »

jpeps wrote:As Steve Jobs often noted, the user shouldn't have to know anything.
I (respectfully) profoundly disagree. In the earlier days of PCs, if you had one you knew what you were doing. Period. There wasn't much choice.

Now people don't want to learn anything -- even how to properly operate a computer that they depend on for daily tasks of significant importance. The result is people who have NO idea what they are doing and find new ways to be dumb with technology every single day (and I'm being kind there).

If you don't have the foggiest clue what's inside the box and you could care less about learning, don't use it. It's a dangerous piece of equipment, like any other power tool, just in different ways. In some ways it's worse. Viruses and other malware. Identity theft. Scams. The potential ruination of one's electronic (and, occasionally, physical) life. If you don't know what you're doing, the bottom line is that you WILL get hurt. It's a matter of time.

I'm not saying that you have to be educated (notice I didn't say "smart", that's different!) enough to run a tech shop -- but I am saying that you should have an approximate knowledge of what's under the hood and should be comfortable with some very basic maintenance...

Under-the-hood stuff...
What a CPU is and what it does. Difference between RAM/memory and HDD. The term "system unit" or "box" -- the big, roughly rectangular thing that says DELL on it is NOT A MODEM! Knowing where to plug things in and approximately the functions the plugs/sockets perform. What a web browser is and approximately why Internet Explorer is not a good one. Understanding enough technobabble to read and understand specifications in Best Buy as well as those presented by the OS itself. In other words -- basically the bare minimum to avoid what I call "Selectric Syndrome" -- someone who really would be better off using a typewriter.

Basic maintenance...
The ability to record and describe common error messages and other problems one tends to experience with a PC. Being comfortable with opening the case and spraying "canned air" around once every couple months (sooner if you have a pet) to avoid dust buildup -- and knowledge of why that's important (as well as why spraying that stuff in a laptop fan inlet/outlet is not very smart). The ability to do VERY basic repairs -- replacing RAM, optical/floppy drives, internal card readers, hard drives (only where a reinstall of the OS is not necessary or extremely simple), and power supplies. The ability to run basic diagnostic software (Memtest86+ and/or HDTune Free when needed, and antivirus/antimalware programs on a regular basis).

That's what I think is the most basic set of knowledge one should have. If you're in the "I know how to press a power button" crowd, press and hold it until the computer turns off, walk away, and please don't come back... if you do come back you'll only be asking for trouble.

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#105 Post by Nathan F »

Have kids? Every day I have to solve issues like "the internet only works at home" (she wasn't bothering to connect to another network with the damn tablet, didn't know she had to) or "this thing won't open my file" (she hadn't installed a word processor at all and just kept clicking on the doc file in her email attachment, causing 12 copies to be downloaded and fail to open).

I bought the kid a tablet so she'd stop complaining that flash crap wasn't working on the PC and I'd be able to use my computer the way I want to. It gracefully solved those problems, but I'm still not off the hook for tech support. She is learning, but it's gonna take some time. And this kid carries straight A's without having to work at it in the slightest.

Expecting the average user to know how a computer works at even a basic level is wishful thinking. Entertainment has moved largely online and that migration will continue. The internet has gone from a vehicle for the free exchange of information to a playground for the masses. I don't like it but I'm not kidding myself about it either. The genie is out of the bottle. It's geared towards the lowest common denominator now. That's not going to change. Get over it. Move on.
Bring on the locusts ...

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#106 Post by jpeps »

starhawk wrote:
jpeps wrote:As Steve Jobs often noted, the user shouldn't have to know anything.
I (respectfully) profoundly disagree. In the earlier days of PCs, if you had one you knew what you were doing. Period. There wasn't much choice.

Now people don't want to learn anything
Jobs was always noting that users know far more than he did about the computer, and thus his philosophy was to follow the users direction. His point was that the computer shouldn't get between the user and what they were trying to use it for. Go to any elementary school, and check out what the 4th and 5th graders are doing. That's what Jobs did back in the 70's.

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#107 Post by Nathan F »

To put it another way, the user just wants to get their work done and log off.
Bring on the locusts ...

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#108 Post by anewuser »

Using puppy without harddisk (entirely off ram) Computer is from 2004. Third world country and blah blah. How I saw puppy:

Wary lowest end capability puppy (2002 or older. Works on newer hardware) The nicest alternative to using old hardware against W95, W98, WinME.

Precise middle end capability puppy aka a junior (2002 up to 2010. Works on newer hardware drops some compatibility with older hardware)

Racy High end capability puppy (2006 up to 2012. Drops even more compatibility with older hardware. Aims to give users and puppy more beef and power, no longer a puppy but a full grown dog, even a wolf!)

Price and availability might not be an issue in G8 or EU countries regarding ram, hdd, etcetera, but it certainly is an issue in the third world where machines from 1998 or older still run or are made to work and even when parts are more expensive now that when they were new due to scarcity. That might not be an issue for a hobby maintainer, and for a project that started as an fun experiment which worked.

Puppy was and still is a nice alternative.

Thank you Mr Barry and the community.
PD:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightweig ... stribution
gives one an idea of other distros in the "same" vein but I have not, nor I plan to try any of them in the future. Puppy just works, or usually just work, and with pet packages for office suites, the casual user in need knows where to look. I came from DSL and puppy (wary or racy) are even easier to use that DSL

My expectations? Something targeted at a low end capability, or in the other and opposite direction, something targeted at a middle or high end capability set up but without the BLOAT of current major distros (read ubuntu 12.04) So centralized, two official distros at most, everything else would be specialiced (media player centered, security centered, rescue os centered, developer centered, and the bestest of all puppyarcade :D :D puppy was ahead of steam box :D ) is what makes puppy so...disperse atm. I think Mr Barry went for the basics of a common abstraction or base in which other developers built upon their own expectations and vision. But a general abstraction was needed first: First woof, then wary/experimental builds, and so on.

ty for reading. I'll continue to use puppy as long as it works on the set up I use it.

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#109 Post by ICPUG »

It's nice to see some names from the earlier days of Puppy on this thread.

Especially welcome is Nathan F. I think I agree with most of what you say.

There is a pardigm shift happening in computing at the moment. I try to fathom where it will lead but I know as much as the next man about that!

It seems that the age of consumers and producers using the same machines (i.e. PC architecture) is disappearing. Tablets and phones are for consumers of content and the apps are pretty limited in what they do, compared to what a program on a PC can do. Producers of content need different machines, currently desktops, but possibly in the future back to dumb terminals hooked to the powerful applications in the cloud.

Since there are more consumers than producers there is a rapid rush to service their needs and us producers become a niche.

Also changing rapidly is the shift from open systems back to closed hardware and walled gardens where you get your media. Jobs may have said the user shouldn't have to know anything. If the users don't know anything then they don't know how much better it may be outside of the Apple confines. We mustn't educate people or they might start buying something else!

In this future world the Operating System concept has changed. Microsoft Windows as it was pre version 8, Mac on the desktop and most Linux distributions, including Puppy, are not relevant.

I don't see a need for further developing a desktop OS like Puppy into the future because future concepts are not going to work with desktops. They are going to work with touch enabled devices. Maybe this is why Barry has decided to stop development now. The desktop needs have been met - there is nothing more to do on the desktop.

The future lies in a different kind of OS that needs a completely fresh start. Just as Gnome 3 is nothing like Gnome 2, Unity is nothing like Gnome 2, Windows 8 is nothing like Windows 7 then Puppy developed for touch devices will be nothing like Puppy today. I am not even sure free (as in freedom) software can survive in future world. I hope so.

In the meantime I still have a need for a desktop and it is perfectly serviced by my preferred choices of Puplets that I can get now. I can only thank Barry for his work in getting such an amazing OS together and for the community for adding to it the extra bits I needed to float my particular boat.

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#110 Post by jpeps »

ICPUG wrote:Tablets and phones are for consumers of content and the apps are pretty limited in what they do, compared to what a program on a PC can do.
Probably more the reverse, which is why they're replacing PCs. Perhaps a bit true a few years ago, but the mobile device has opened a zillion opportunities that developers have responded to.
ICPUG wrote: Jobs may have said the user shouldn't have to know anything.
He didn't . He said the users knew far more about computers then he did, and to follow their directions for creating a great tool. Users shoudn't need to know things like what permissions need to be reset before they're able to print.

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