Puppy Linux Discussion Forum Forum Index Puppy Linux Discussion Forum
Puppy HOME page : puppylinux.com
"THE" alternative forum : puppylinux.info
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The time now is Thu 18 Dec 2014, 00:11
All times are UTC - 4
 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
Crowdfunded Puppy
Moderators: Flash, JohnMurga
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
Page 1 of 4 Posts_count   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Author Message
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2739
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 04:35    Post_subject:  Crowdfunded Puppy
Sub_title: Free laptop for dev??
 

I would like to throw an idea into the mix - alongside the current efforts to produce a Community Edition puppy I wonder if it would be worthwhile to find a way to encourage a high quality dev to build a specific type of puppy that was designed to a "community spec" - but using the most recent laptop that we as a group could put up as a 'bounty' and development tool. The laptop would immediately become the possesion of the chosen dev. A reward for effort and skill.

Here are my thoughts:

1) This is not a 'competition' to measure one dev against another - it is a way to reward one specific developer for participating in a 'group' goal

2) In some way (I don't know the method) the group would 'elect' one dev who was willing to accept the challenge. (If more than one dev, then maybe more than one project...?)

3) Willing contributors would pledge some amount of real money to the project. I pledge a minimum of NZ$50. No amount is too small - everything helps. And I would propose that any contributor could withdraw their pledge at any time (some people may feel uncomfortable with the final design proposals, or have changed financial circumstances etc etc...)

4) The group would (after MUCH discussion I imagine) choose the specifications / goals of the project. I think a "fat" puppy running on the recent laptop (complete with usb3 if possible) would be the goal. This group list should cover such things as the types of software to be included (ie which Wordprocessing package, which browser or browsers, etc etc), the type of peripherals to be attached (could we agree on the most Linux friendly printer / multifunctional and include one of those in the reward package??) and a whole variety of other parameters. I imagine there would be a HUGE range of requests. Maybe even stuff like a fully functional CAD package?
My main parameters would be that the puppy would fit on a CD (but that is probably being unnecessarily restrictive) and have a very good chance of running on a wide range of pretty new hardware.

5) Speaking of hardware - I would probably set as my goal a PC that is a common model, still on the shelf, and NOT running UEFI. (I am a little paranoid about UEFI so am very open to hear the feelings of devs like 01micko, pemasu, jb etc about whether avoidance of UEFI has any merit for this project or not)


The overall goal of the project is to produce a well-crafted, fully configured puppy that runs on a specific high-spec recent laptop.

Are there any other puppians who might consider pledging some specific amount? (No amount too small...). Are there any devs who would consider (even remotely) taking up such a challenge (or even helping shape the project)?

What hardware specs?
What software to include?
What distro packages to use as a base? (I'd probably let the dev choose that...)

I would hope this would not detract from CE efforts - it would possibly even assist them - but I do feel that a project targeted at specific new hardware is something many puppians have been asking for (even though my own hardware is pretty bleak and old Smile )

I think it would be necessary to ensure the goals of the project - and the specific hardware - were clearly defined before the dev starts work - then we just let them go at their own pace. It would be asking too much to expect the dev to react to every new suggestion AFTER the laptop has been allocated. This would be a different approach to our normal puppy projects where contributors try the new Puppy on many different types of old and new hardware - generating an ongoing stream of unending development. This crowdfunding project would aim to support one common type of new hardware that we might expect to find on Ebay in 4 or 5 years time second hand. That way wealthy Puppians could buy such a laptop and use it now, and the rest of us could try to get one cheaper in a few years (when everyone else is using Android wristwatches for their computing...)

(There could be an opportunity later for a thread dedicated to making the final puppy work on other hardware - but that thread would not be part of the project - just a thread anyone could contribute to)

And of course - if the project gets off the ground - how to collect the money and when?
.

Edited_times_total
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2739
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 04:35    Post_subject:  

Suggestions:

Software aims:
Good version of Wine
Good wordprocessing package
CAD package
Video editing software
etc
etc
etc

Hardware aims
Ram size
Cpu power
Graphics card
Storage capacity
USB3 ports
BIOS, UEFI or coreboot?? coreboot info here
SD card reader that works out of the box ( "impossible" I hear you say!!)
Bluetooth?
etc etc
POSSIBLE ACTUAL HARDWARE SOURCES:
http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/
https://www.system76.com/laptops/

Other features
XDG compliant menu system such as suggested by Mobeus
Choice of window managers
Samba?
CUPS version?
etc

Base packages
- chosen by dev? Ubuntu, debian, slackware?
.

Edited_times_total
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2739
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 04:36    Post_subject:  

reserved
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 06:17    Post_subject:  

Quote:
5) Speaking of hardware - I would probably set as my goal
a PC that is a common model, still on the shelf, and NOT running UEFI.

(I am a little paranoid about UEFI so am very open to hear the feelings
of devs like 01micko etc about whether avoidance of UEFI has any merit
for this project or not)


I think we need both because in some countries I doubt they still sell
those older laptops with Win XP or without Ms at all.

If they do they will be very expensive compared to those with
Win8.0 or Win 8.1 installed and both using the dreaded UEFI

so we sure need both. I could afford to pay some 300 USD
if the Dev promise to really do their best and not give up at first problem.

That amount of money does not bother me being alone and
not having other expenses to worry about. But I would use VISA
and Electronic VISA not wanting to reveal the real number
only use the time restricted version. E-card or what the name is.

But do we have somebody willing?

We have the team behind FatDog 64 but they have been
rather silent about latest dev of the Certification of UEFI
and if it works on all hardware known to be popular?

Or me have not paid attention to what progress they have done recently.

_________________
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2739
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 13:20    Post_subject:  

Wow - Nooby that is a fantastic offer. I never dreamed of such generosity. But it shows how much people love Puppy and want a future for it. My hope is that there would be enough interest for us to get a total pool of maybe $USD2000 or similar? I hope that would be enough to buy a really nice laptop.

Maybe something with good availability and common features (like the Toyota Corolla of laptops) - but with more power than the sort of laptop that is common for first year students at University - maybe something like a new graduate Engineering student would look for? Something that could run a CAD package or have enough power / storage for video processing etc.

Looking for lots and lots of ideas, even if contributors are not ready or able to pledge financial support....
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
bigpup


Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Posts: 5479
Location: Charleston S.C. USA

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 14:43    Post_subject:  

Crowd-funded Puppy

Puppy is and always will be Crowd-funded, just not with money.

Nobody works on Puppy for money. They do it as a hobby, in their spare time. Something fun to do and not a paying job.
I do not help with Puppy for money and would not take any if offered. I do it because it is fun for me and something I want to do. Like fishing, hiking, working on cars, etc...

Anyone that wants to develop a version of Puppy can just do it.
They do not need a a group decision to do it or how to do it. If people want to help them, they do.
That is Puppy Linux Exclamation .

Barry, the original developer of Puppy, was the only real driving force of new versions of Puppy.
He had the time to do it.
He seemed to come up with a new version all the time.
He is now, for the most part gone. Who is really going to take his place?

If you want to do this for money.
Go work for Microsoft, Apple, Red Hat, etc.....

When puppy starts being something you do for money, it will loose my help.

_________________
I have found, in trying to help people, that the things they do not tell you, are usually the clue to solving the problem.
When I was a kid I wanted to be older.... This is not what I expected Shocked
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2739
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 15:12    Post_subject:  

Yes, I understand the sentiment. And the strength of Puppy is in the voluntary nature of the contributors.

I am not a fan of paying devs - all I am suggesting is a method to put a recent laptop into the hands of a dev who has the skill to solve the problems inherent in getting new hardware to work (like USB3 for example) and also the skill to integrate some of the more complex software into a complete well functioning unit that works well on recent hardware.

I personally don't have any recent hardware myself, but it is clear that many Puppians (especially those new to Puppy) DO have such hardware and some have expressed their experience and feelings that Puppy needs more focus on the new stuff as well as the old.

Do all the top devs have adequate hardware already? Am I misguided in my thinking?
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
sunburnt


Joined: 08 Jun 2005
Posts: 5043
Location: Arizona, U.S.A.

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 15:24    Post_subject:  

Puppy as it is ain`t all that bad...

How about just listing some of the long time faults and fixing them one by one.?
Start a post and gather Puppy faults in a header list so folks can tackle them.?
As an item`s fix is started a new dev. repair post just for it would be started.

I can think of a dozen or more items myself. Most of them would be easy to fix.
As said of code loss, many of these items have been fixed, some several times.
.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 17:23    Post_subject:  

bigpup you are right about why one contribute. It is fun
and not a job.

But like greengeek do point out we can not expect that Devs
buy new hardware for to have fun when they already
have fun with the used hardware that is a few years old.

The latest hardware like CPU has advanced power saving
tools that still is not in the Linux kernel AFAIK. Intel's latest
just one example.

_________________
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

Edited_time_total
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
puppyluvr


Joined: 06 Jan 2008
Posts: 3229
Location: Chickasha Oklahoma

PostPosted: Thu 05 Dec 2013, 19:09    Post_subject:  

Very Happy Hello,
The problem as I see it is that new computer equipment becomes obsolete in a month. By the time you develop a puppy suitable for specific piece of hardware that piece of hardware is already n the thrift store. ( Gotta love windoze users for keeping us supplied) Its like trying to write the Puppy Manual.. We gave up, it changes too fast. Rolling Eyes
I have proposed an idea in my Puppy Linux Users Group on Facebook
called Puppy from scratch. A puppy that will run on any computer.
The idea is to have puppy give you a choice of what to load in the RAM. A choice of SFS files a choice of initrd's and a choice of kernels.
32 and 64 bit, pae and nonpae, window manager / desktop environment, glx or not via video card, etc.
3 or so .sfs files, and several initrd's and kernels could fit in a cd.
Basically a multipup cd, where the default pup is bare, just enough to boot to vesa and do hardware recognition, copy the files to a directory in ram, and offer to install it or make an iso. Various "upgrades" can reside in the "pets" and "sfs" folders on a multipup cd, to be used after rebooting into the created Puppy.
Using Puppies multisession abilities, the created Pup could even be "installed into a "My Pup" directory on the cd itself, to chose via grub on reboot. A grub menu like "Build my Pup" and reboot to "Try my Pup in Ram" and then if you like it , install it.

Umm.. Sorry.. No intent to highjack your thread..
Maybe I should start a thread for it, when its ready..

_________________
Close the Windows, and open your eyes, to a whole new world
http://puppylinuxstuff.meownplanet.net/puppyluvr/
Puppy Linux Users Group on Facebook

Puppy since 2.15CE...
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message Visit_website 
nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013, 00:48    Post_subject:  

puppyluvr that is so true. They change the hardware
all the time.

Latest is advanced power management that allow it to
go to sleep very often and that way they save power

AFAIK the Linux Kernel Devs has not access to that Intel secret code
how they could implement that in the Linux Kernel so that is a big problem.

Those CPU having that features are in the latest computers sold.
Thanks for telling about your FB group. I did find it using the
search Puppy Linux Users Group on Facebook

Okay we should not derail but you do point to a vital aspect as I see it.
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=59524&sid=65934b1490d3a36c8c8d7a1b00c48952

_________________
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
gcmartin


Joined: 14 Oct 2005
Posts: 4494
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013, 01:05    Post_subject:  

@PuppyLuvr, as you know I love your contributions. The last post seemingly suggest 2 distinct approaches: correct me if I'm getting this wrong. It appears you're suggesting a "boot-time system builder" as well as suggesting a "boot-time system selector".

Boot-time Selector
In the past in Puppyland, I think you and I have referred to how Knoppix allows a user, at boot-time to select whether one wants to boot to a 64bit desktop or a 32bit desktop. When Knopper did this in 2007 or so, I thought the industry would jump to this, but, he is the only one in the whole wide world (www) that has perfected and continues to provide this. And mentioning it here in the forum has not gotten anyone to consider something which seems so obvious to me. Again, what you present is plausible, but it will need to be as simple to do as what Knopper has done with Knoppix.

Boot-time System Builder
I wonder if this could be done in such a way as to NOT be confusing to new/infrequent users. It has merit, but, it brings to mind a 2-step approach to a get a new base system from this builder approach. This is different from a system Remaster in that it appears to bypass the current PUP PPM to stack a bunch of SFSs together for achieving a system for user use. This also differs from what Jeminah presents with her last distro which is a kind of system builder that is done AFTER reaching desktop. And, can it be done so that session saves can (for CD/DVD/ISO/frugal boots) be maintained in each media?

@PuppyLuvr, Am I seeing your ideas proper?

@GreenGeek, This is a good thread for community consideration. One of the most interesting appeals is to put hardware in a developers hand so that they can "first-hand" develop and address issues with his work. The most important benefit is that it frees/releases any develop from being stuck with old hardware and using the fact that he/she has old hardware as a reason to keep the rest of the community's attention on just plain old-stuff. With newer technology, they can then address Puppy maturity in the light of industry movement while also maintaining a great level of compatibility with the old. Great thread @GreenGeek!

_________________
Get ACTIVE Create Circles; Do those good things which benefit people's needs!
We are all related ... Its time to show that we know this!
3 Different Puppy Search Engine or use DogPile
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2739
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013, 03:21    Post_subject:  

puppyluvr wrote:
Umm.. Sorry.. No intent to highjack your thread..

No problem. Hijack away... the more new ideas that come to the fore the better it is for everyone in the longrun. What I am really hoping for is a project that makes the best of some pretty recent hardware, and gives puppians the type of progress and productivity that they want to get from such new powerful hardware. This could involve all sorts of new ideas such as you have expressed.

If there is any interest in the project it could track in other directions - Maybe this project could morph into a new Pup stored as multiple versions on a Multipup CD? - 32 bit and 64 bit and PAE and nonPAE versions all on the one CD/DVD. (Refresh my memory - does your Multipup create DVDs as well as CDs?)

I'm keen for people to chuck lots of ideas on the table and lets see if anyone feels like going with it...
.
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
nooby

Joined: 29 Jun 2008
Posts: 10557
Location: SwedenEurope

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013, 04:23    Post_subject:  

greengeek if I get you correct you want us
to pool our resources together to buy a rather good computer

Laptop with big screen and DVD and lots of RAM
and a good CPU and in the price class of ??? USD

Look for suggestions here?
http://www.techradar.com/news/mobile-computing/laptops/top-laptops-25-best-laptops-in-the-world-706673

http://www.laptopmag.com/best-laptops.aspx
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2369981,00.asp

Should it be 64bit or 32 bit. 64 bit allow bigger HD?
and is what to aim for? What else to consider?

CPU and Chips Intel or AMD?

_________________
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
greengeek

Joined: 20 Jul 2010
Posts: 2739
Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Fri 06 Dec 2013, 05:30    Post_subject:  

Yes, that is the general idea. So if your old hardware stopped working and you had to buy a new laptop, what hardware could you look for? What new hardware would run properly with puppy? (and not have crippled usb3 ports or non-functional bluetooth etc etc)

I have started adding lists of possible specs and functions to the first two posts. The specifications on new PCs are way better than anything I've got. It is a long time since I bought new hardware, but when i do I want it to run Puppy, and I want it to be powerful enough to run CAD and video processing (things I don't have the power to do on my current hardware). Maybe other puppians have recent hardware and can make some suggestions about what works well or what hardware to avoid because puppy is not up to the task...

I would like this project to identify hardware that is worth buying and put that hardware in the hands of a capable dev who can build a puppy that makes the best use of that machine..
Back to top
View user's profile Send_private_message 
Display_posts:   Sort by:   
Page 1 of 4 Posts_count   Goto page: 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Post_new_topic   Reply_to_topic View_previous_topic :: View_next_topic
 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects
Jump to:  

Rules_post_cannot
Rules_reply_cannot
Rules_edit_cannot
Rules_delete_cannot
Rules_vote_cannot
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
[ Time: 0.1131s ][ Queries: 12 (0.0048s) ][ GZIP on ]