Now, how and what should this community do to attract those Windows users who would seek an alternative?
Ideas...
Announcing the OBVIOUS: Puppy, Replacement - WinXP/Vista/7/8
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gcmartin
Announcing the OBVIOUS: Puppy, Replacement - WinXP/Vista/7/8
Thought this would be a good article for how this community's solutions would be an alternative.
Now, how and what should this community do to attract those Windows users who would seek an alternative?
Ideas...
Now, how and what should this community do to attract those Windows users who would seek an alternative?
Ideas...
Last edited by gcmartin on Sun 09 Mar 2014, 16:35, edited 1 time in total.
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darry1966
But is it worth it?
Absolutely YES -
have been trying a Win8 crippled laptop for a few days, (secured ?) and further crippled with UEFI -
It has been driving me nuts -
the touch screen operation and hardware is ok
BUT - the software even after a 2day excorcise “upgrading
Absolutely YES -
have been trying a Win8 crippled laptop for a few days, (secured ?) and further crippled with UEFI -
It has been driving me nuts -
the touch screen operation and hardware is ok
BUT - the software even after a 2day excorcise “upgrading
[b]Asus[/b] 701SD. 2gig ram. 8gb SSD. [b]IBM A21m[/b] laptop. 192mb ram. PIII Coppermine proc. [b]X60[/b] T2400 1.8Ghz proc. 2gig ram. 80gb hdd. [b]T41[/b] Pentium M 1400Mhz. 512mb ram.
The "worth it" was targeted the work to create the xp2puppy-migration-beast [XP2PMB]- not if it is worth using Puppy. I tried to help family with Windows8 some time ago - gave up. My XP-install is running like an old cripple - invalidated by "updates". Sure
- everyday!Puppy is a breath of fresh air
I'm just curious what reasons folks have for wanting lots of Windows users to migrate to Puppy (or any Linux distro). I mean, I can see why it might be a good move for Windows users, if they're willing to learn a little more about how computers work (and especially if they have older hardware). But what do you see the benefit is for Puppy, or Linux?
One big advantage of Linux is that there isn't much of a malware threat. But isn't that primarily because the market share is so small? And I've seen what's happened to the (arguably) most "successful" Linux OS, Ubuntu, as it's grown in popularity. There's been greater and greater push to make it more appealing to a wider audience, and that's led to simplification, the removal of features and configurability, and the introduction of commercial ties to make shopping easier. Lots of people, including me, think this is really reducing the quality of the OS (I'm done with Ubuntu after 12.04). I'd hate to see Puppy move in that direction.
I think one of the great strengths of Puppy is that is thrives without a huge user base or big financial backers. It's just people who really like learning what computers can do, doing it as well as they can, and sharing what they've discovered. Who needs market share?
But maybe there's benefits I'm not seeing...
One big advantage of Linux is that there isn't much of a malware threat. But isn't that primarily because the market share is so small? And I've seen what's happened to the (arguably) most "successful" Linux OS, Ubuntu, as it's grown in popularity. There's been greater and greater push to make it more appealing to a wider audience, and that's led to simplification, the removal of features and configurability, and the introduction of commercial ties to make shopping easier. Lots of people, including me, think this is really reducing the quality of the OS (I'm done with Ubuntu after 12.04). I'd hate to see Puppy move in that direction.
I think one of the great strengths of Puppy is that is thrives without a huge user base or big financial backers. It's just people who really like learning what computers can do, doing it as well as they can, and sharing what they've discovered. Who needs market share?
But maybe there's benefits I'm not seeing...
Actually, Puppy or other Linux cannot be infected because of the entire system, not because viruses are not being written for it. Although one step of security -- not running from Root -- is bypassed in Puppy.
The only reason to have a virus scanner in Linux is to keep from passing along viruses you've picked up when sending files to your Windoze friends.
The only reason to have a virus scanner in Linux is to keep from passing along viruses you've picked up when sending files to your Windoze friends.
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john biles
- Posts: 1458
- Joined: Sun 17 Sep 2006, 14:05
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
gcmartin,
To a Windows User a Computer = just another Appliance to use and abuse. To a Linux User a Computer = amazing complex device to be managed and used with respect to get the most out of it.
Over the years I tried to convert Windows Users with 0% success. Linux is for those who want to take control. Only those Windows Users who are really Linux users like we once were but don't know it yet will convert. All others are lost.
Linux should never be a replacement for Windows. We dishonor Linux by doing so. It is Linux's and Puppy's unique way of computing that makes it so magically. Any new developments in Puppy should be for the benefit of Linux users. Linspire, Xandros etc were all marketed at Windows users and failed. If you market to a windows user you will fail. If all you do is focus your energy on making a better Puppy for Linux user who will appreciate what your trying to do the rewards will be great. A Windows user will never appreciate what you've done for them and will only leave you with disappointment and a hollow feeling inside.
I've given 100's of hours of free time to these Windows users who complain how bad Windows is but soon return to it. I've left my Linux PC's in their homes to try which are soon abandoned. Friends and relatives ask me to fix their Windows computers which soon makes you realize how badly these people treat their computers. In all truth Windows is an amazing operating system for the abuse it gets day to day being used by these morons.
As of yesterday I will never spent one more minute on fixing Windows related problems. My friends and relatives will be told I use Linux and only work on computers running Linux.
If this sounds like I'm angry well I'm not. I just realized when it's time to help those who will appreciate it and this means those running Linux and forget about the rest.
To a Windows User a Computer = just another Appliance to use and abuse. To a Linux User a Computer = amazing complex device to be managed and used with respect to get the most out of it.
Over the years I tried to convert Windows Users with 0% success. Linux is for those who want to take control. Only those Windows Users who are really Linux users like we once were but don't know it yet will convert. All others are lost.
Linux should never be a replacement for Windows. We dishonor Linux by doing so. It is Linux's and Puppy's unique way of computing that makes it so magically. Any new developments in Puppy should be for the benefit of Linux users. Linspire, Xandros etc were all marketed at Windows users and failed. If you market to a windows user you will fail. If all you do is focus your energy on making a better Puppy for Linux user who will appreciate what your trying to do the rewards will be great. A Windows user will never appreciate what you've done for them and will only leave you with disappointment and a hollow feeling inside.
I've given 100's of hours of free time to these Windows users who complain how bad Windows is but soon return to it. I've left my Linux PC's in their homes to try which are soon abandoned. Friends and relatives ask me to fix their Windows computers which soon makes you realize how badly these people treat their computers. In all truth Windows is an amazing operating system for the abuse it gets day to day being used by these morons.
As of yesterday I will never spent one more minute on fixing Windows related problems. My friends and relatives will be told I use Linux and only work on computers running Linux.
If this sounds like I'm angry well I'm not. I just realized when it's time to help those who will appreciate it and this means those running Linux and forget about the rest.
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.
Most likely you'll continue because you know how and they don't. Anyway, give credit where it's do. There is something to be said for an OS that morons can use quite successfully.john biles wrote:In all truth Windows is an amazing operating system for the abuse it gets day to day being used by these morons.
As of yesterday I will never spent one more minute on fixing Windows related problems.
Well, I am one of those Windows-users who only quite recently discovered Linux, and I couldn't be happier to be honest.
It' s probably a story you will come to hear more often in the near future, but with all these ominous warnings Microsoft issued about XP not being supported any longer, and basically saying it would be 'hacker-meat' come April next year, I just felt like it was such an arrogant and presumptuous position for them to take, believing they could blackmail customers to buy a new OS by threatening to throw them for the lions. I felt I did not want to be subject to the policies of a company that tries to strongarm its way into my pockets like that, so I started looking for alternatives.
Now, I've had a long term relationship with Windows, so to speak. I started running Windows 3.1 on an XT that didn't even have a CPU. And back in those days you had to tweak stuff, and guard your free memory, and try to find creative solutions for some things to make it all work.
That has totally changed through the years. Everything became Plug and Play, there were no hardware restrictions, MS-DOS became obsolete. It wasn't as if it was impossible to dive into the mechanics of the OS, if you were determined to do so, but there was hardly any need for it anymore. Besides that, the OS itself had turned into a very complex moloch without any transparency. And then of course, there was the Internet, which turned into the big, attention consuming, entertaining, time-consuming, all seeing eye that it is now, with us being the little click minions.
The thing is, that people tend to become less creative once restrictions are lifted. Once things are possible, things become easy, and once things become easy, they don't need to be conquered, and so there is no longer a challenge.
I've been fortunate enough to remember a time when I had to type stuff, save it, and run it, time after time until it finally worked, and you could jump around and go to bed. But most Windows users never had that experience. For those people, there is no difference between the OS and the GUI, and you can only change something by clicking on it. You can hardly expect those people to be overjoyed once they are being confronted with terminal commands. In fact, neither am I, because I've changed into a click-user as well, and I have this same -OMG I hope I won't type in something that will permanently screw this whole thing up- feeling every time I open the terminal (which I try desperately to avoid). But at least I know that it is a temporary state. That it is okay to be insecure and a bit fearful right now, and that yes you'll goof up and things will be a mess and you have to start all over, but that that is the way you learn things anyway.
I really really like Puppy Linux. Because I can be that kid again who can fiddle about and tweak and discover and has to watch his free space. I love the fact that it fits on a USB stick, loads into RAM, runs so much faster than Windows. But I also realize that that's just me.
I could tell these things to other people and it would fly right over their heads.
So I don't think Puppy Linux should aspire to be a replacement for Windows. I believe that would diminish its potential. I believe Puppy Linux has a identity of its own, and just like people, you'll always be happier if you try to be yourself. And pardon me for speaking these lofty words, but anything that finds its own true expression, will find its true attractors.
It' s probably a story you will come to hear more often in the near future, but with all these ominous warnings Microsoft issued about XP not being supported any longer, and basically saying it would be 'hacker-meat' come April next year, I just felt like it was such an arrogant and presumptuous position for them to take, believing they could blackmail customers to buy a new OS by threatening to throw them for the lions. I felt I did not want to be subject to the policies of a company that tries to strongarm its way into my pockets like that, so I started looking for alternatives.
Now, I've had a long term relationship with Windows, so to speak. I started running Windows 3.1 on an XT that didn't even have a CPU. And back in those days you had to tweak stuff, and guard your free memory, and try to find creative solutions for some things to make it all work.
That has totally changed through the years. Everything became Plug and Play, there were no hardware restrictions, MS-DOS became obsolete. It wasn't as if it was impossible to dive into the mechanics of the OS, if you were determined to do so, but there was hardly any need for it anymore. Besides that, the OS itself had turned into a very complex moloch without any transparency. And then of course, there was the Internet, which turned into the big, attention consuming, entertaining, time-consuming, all seeing eye that it is now, with us being the little click minions.
The thing is, that people tend to become less creative once restrictions are lifted. Once things are possible, things become easy, and once things become easy, they don't need to be conquered, and so there is no longer a challenge.
I've been fortunate enough to remember a time when I had to type stuff, save it, and run it, time after time until it finally worked, and you could jump around and go to bed. But most Windows users never had that experience. For those people, there is no difference between the OS and the GUI, and you can only change something by clicking on it. You can hardly expect those people to be overjoyed once they are being confronted with terminal commands. In fact, neither am I, because I've changed into a click-user as well, and I have this same -OMG I hope I won't type in something that will permanently screw this whole thing up- feeling every time I open the terminal (which I try desperately to avoid). But at least I know that it is a temporary state. That it is okay to be insecure and a bit fearful right now, and that yes you'll goof up and things will be a mess and you have to start all over, but that that is the way you learn things anyway.
I really really like Puppy Linux. Because I can be that kid again who can fiddle about and tweak and discover and has to watch his free space. I love the fact that it fits on a USB stick, loads into RAM, runs so much faster than Windows. But I also realize that that's just me.
I could tell these things to other people and it would fly right over their heads.
So I don't think Puppy Linux should aspire to be a replacement for Windows. I believe that would diminish its potential. I believe Puppy Linux has a identity of its own, and just like people, you'll always be happier if you try to be yourself. And pardon me for speaking these lofty words, but anything that finds its own true expression, will find its true attractors.
The main thing is that people don't care, or are aligned in the Windows/Apple war. They don't want something they've never heard of, they think that means little support. They also have a favorite game (but increasingly those are on the web or are being ported to Linux projects) they don't want to lose.john biles wrote:gcmartin,
To a Windows User a Computer = just another Appliance to use and abuse. To a Linux User a Computer = amazing complex device to be managed and used with respect to get the most out of it.
Over the years I tried to convert Windows Users with 0% success. Linux is for those who want to take control. Only those Windows Users who are really Linux users like we once were but don't know it yet will convert. All others are lost.
On the other hand, my 8-year-old daughter loves my Puppy computer, and we have an ancient 2001 Sony laptop with Qimo For Kids that she uses. The school gave her a Windows desktop, but she plays and paints and draws and most other things on her laptop. I do have a copy of MacPup 528 on it also, and she loves the desktop but doesn't want to take time to learn the interface and figure out how to load the stuff she wants, when Qimo has it all already.
I disagree with this in principle. All those distros which tried to please Windows users had the same problem -- they didn't have the money to market them. Had nothing whatever to do with the project itself, for a Windows (or Mac) user, $$$ = support. Grassroots projects do not appeal to popular-software users.Linux should never be a replacement for Windows. We dishonor Linux by doing so. It is Linux's and Puppy's unique way of computing that makes it so magically. Any new developments in Puppy should be for the benefit of Linux users. Linspire, Xandros etc were all marketed at Windows users and failed. If you market to a windows user you will fail. If all you do is focus your energy on making a better Puppy for Linux user who will appreciate what your trying to do the rewards will be great. A Windows user will never appreciate what you've done for them and will only leave you with disappointment and a hollow feeling inside.
I've had several friends I talked to about Linux. I have had mixed results, but much better than yours. I have one friend who eventually bought 3 identical computers (to build from parts) and went with Fedora on one (he changes his mind occasionally and uses another distro), Windows on another, and turned the third into a Hackintosh... and he mostly uses the Linux box, but they are all completely networked. That is sort of beyond what one could wish for but it did happen.
I also believe that the advent of Android is opening up a lot of minds... and if we can keep it out there that Android IS Linux, more people will be willing to check out your friendly distro...
As far as myself, you can read in my thread, "UEFI Drove Me Home", where I'm at. I have a new computer. It came with Windoze 8. It sucked. The ASUS "Support" person helped me get it so dicked up the only things I can do (right now) are to run Puppy, run Linux off a live disk (like Mint), totally reformat the hard drive to include MBR and THEN install Linux to boot from it, or send it back (I have an RMA now) to have Windoze 8 put back on it. I am still waffling whether to send it back, but even if I do I fully intend to run Puppy on it. Because, you see, Puppy is the easiest, fastest solution to my desktop nightmares.
Um, that would take some doing. I think you mean it didn't have a hard drive. The CPU is Central Processing Unit, aka Processor. It probably had an 8088 chip on it.solo wrote:Now, I've had a long term relationship with Windows, so to speak. I started running Windows 3.1 on an XT that didn't even have a CPU. And back in those days you had to tweak stuff, and guard your free memory, and try to find creative solutions for some things to make it all work.
My first computers were running DOS 3.3 and I stayed away from Windoze for quite a while. Hey, Windoze 2.1 Runtime was a joke, and the joke was that you had to sell the operating environment by packaging it with software the customer DID want. But I did use 3.0, 3.1, and 3.11 (with additions) and did not run Linux in those days... mainly because, as Linux became available, you had to literally know the part number of everything in your computer to set up Linux and still might not have available drivers. But I tried one out every now and then, usually enough to tweak my interest but not to run on my computer.
First Linux that ran on a computer I owned out of the box was Mandrake 9. And Mandrake 10 would not run on that same computer. Then a later version of SuSE worked, but it felt kinda stiff. Later I ran Ubuntu as my sole OS (even though the computers were usually dual-boot), up until they came up with Unity (which would not even install on my computer).
So the fact that I'm quite happy with Puppy 571 (and in the past, MacPup 528, but that does not run on my current hardware) as a complete OS should say something about ... well, something. I'm ready for it. Not that I know many people like me LOL... don't even think there's a LUG in Knoxville (used to be, website is dormant).
Amazing really - if you consider all the effort that has gone into issuing constant system security updates for years and years, and now Microsoft apparently expects users to believe that an upgrade to Win8 will solve this problem and will not require the same constant upgrades.solo wrote:.. but with all these ominous warnings Microsoft issued about XP not being supported any longer, and basically saying it would be 'hacker-meat' come April next year, I just felt like it was such an arrogant and presumptuous position for them to take, believing they could blackmail customers to buy a new OS by threatening to throw them for the lions.
My question is - will Win 8 be any more secure than XP? Or will it still need those daily updates?
Why buy a PC with secure UEFI booting if all it loads into memory is another insecure Windows operating system??
I have kept my XP just to be able to do home banking - which needs java. This year I have been forced to update both browser (firefox) and java several times. Last week I spend 2 hours trying to get browser and java working so I could get into my bank. Next day I could not enter again. 
I went back in Puppy 412 and installed java-1.6u10.pet (that is a version from 2009 I think) - enabled java in seamonkey - and connected without any delay or problems. After downloading loads of Mb updates of java and browsers for XP - wasting time...all I needed was a simple pet-install in Puppy!
I went back in Puppy 412 and installed java-1.6u10.pet (that is a version from 2009 I think) - enabled java in seamonkey - and connected without any delay or problems. After downloading loads of Mb updates of java and browsers for XP - wasting time...all I needed was a simple pet-install in Puppy!
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john biles
- Posts: 1458
- Joined: Sun 17 Sep 2006, 14:05
- Location: Australia
- Contact:
Hello zaivala,
Do you know all Linux has done for me in relation to relatives and friends is made me the but of all jokes. They laugh at this stupid penguin operating system that is a toy not a real OS like Windows and Mac. Yes you are 100% right that marketing would make a big difference but would cost millions spent over years.
By making Linux free it has no real value. Just remember "Nothing in this world is free" so the slogan goes. Free is working against it.
I am a Projectionist in charge of $$$ Digital Projectors all running Linux. When you next go to the cinema look up at the port glass as there are Linux based Servers projecting your film. The movie arrives on a EXT2 formatted DCP hard drive. Guess what my work mates know its all Linux based but still dismiss the Linux version running on my Laptop as a dumb toy that Linux nut plays with. I look at them and think you dumb fools. At home Linux has been a blessing allowing my family to do things we'd been never able to do due to our financial situation.
While it would be nice to think Android will bring a Linux Desktop to the masses it won't. Android = Google not Linux in their minds. Android is that mobile phone Apple is aways suing. Did you know that Google is slowly replacing its default Open Source apps on Android with proprietary versions.I also believe that the advent of Android is opening up a lot of minds... and if we can keep it out there that Android IS Linux, more people will be willing to check out your friendly distro...
Do you know all Linux has done for me in relation to relatives and friends is made me the but of all jokes. They laugh at this stupid penguin operating system that is a toy not a real OS like Windows and Mac. Yes you are 100% right that marketing would make a big difference but would cost millions spent over years.
By making Linux free it has no real value. Just remember "Nothing in this world is free" so the slogan goes. Free is working against it.
I am a Projectionist in charge of $$$ Digital Projectors all running Linux. When you next go to the cinema look up at the port glass as there are Linux based Servers projecting your film. The movie arrives on a EXT2 formatted DCP hard drive. Guess what my work mates know its all Linux based but still dismiss the Linux version running on my Laptop as a dumb toy that Linux nut plays with. I look at them and think you dumb fools. At home Linux has been a blessing allowing my family to do things we'd been never able to do due to our financial situation.
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.
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gcmartin
There are some ideas (suggestions) of interest that we might want to share with developers who might find them a means to make PUPs more attractive to the wider audience. We have heard it here and in other current threads as a feature useful in PUPs:
That distro makes a striking attempt to make simple the system's use after the initial to start user comfort, "FirstRUN" (Personalized Settings).
Currently this is the closest OOTB distro in Puppyland which has mappings to what Windows users find in their desktops.
My personal feeling is that PC users who migrate to distros of this sort can serve to make is extremely easy for them to become helpful PUP community users. This is not just the ease of use, but the speed, structure, and flexibility that comes with the distro. There is, of course, a learning curve; but this learning curve is similar in moving from XP to Vista to 7 and certainly, now, to 8.
This thread seeks ideas to allow those who would seek a fast, responsive, and easy to use system to find Puppy just that.
In a 32bit world, should they come here with such, they might find much in PhatSlacko as it does provide much of what LH64 provides while offering other items via its PPM. Judging from the lack of problems reported, there is a strong suggestion of STABILITY. Reason: LAN services is a OOTB service with little chance of getting it wrong.
There are other very very excellent offerings, as well, throughout Puppyland which bring lots and lots of very good subsystems and applications to the user's table, desktop, and service.
Hope this helps.
- Wine
- Java
That distro makes a striking attempt to make simple the system's use after the initial to start user comfort, "FirstRUN" (Personalized Settings).
Currently this is the closest OOTB distro in Puppyland which has mappings to what Windows users find in their desktops.
My personal feeling is that PC users who migrate to distros of this sort can serve to make is extremely easy for them to become helpful PUP community users. This is not just the ease of use, but the speed, structure, and flexibility that comes with the distro. There is, of course, a learning curve; but this learning curve is similar in moving from XP to Vista to 7 and certainly, now, to 8.
This thread seeks ideas to allow those who would seek a fast, responsive, and easy to use system to find Puppy just that.
In a 32bit world, should they come here with such, they might find much in PhatSlacko as it does provide much of what LH64 provides while offering other items via its PPM. Judging from the lack of problems reported, there is a strong suggestion of STABILITY. Reason: LAN services is a OOTB service with little chance of getting it wrong.
There are other very very excellent offerings, as well, throughout Puppyland which bring lots and lots of very good subsystems and applications to the user's table, desktop, and service.
Hope this helps.
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gcmartin
Also, @John is right that we have not always been met with acceptance. But, some of us have had successes to show. What is needed as he correctly points is some method of marketing that would "announce" Puppy distros as a reasonable alternative to REPLACE the slower and out of date XP.
This is where Puppyland shines in the alternatives offered!
This is where Puppyland shines in the alternatives offered!