Announcing the OBVIOUS: Puppy, Replacement - WinXP/Vista/7/8

News, happenings
Message
Author
User avatar
James C
Posts: 6618
Joined: Thu 26 Mar 2009, 05:12
Location: Kentucky

#31 Post by James C »

greengeek wrote:
john biles wrote: I for one love series 2 and spend 90% of my time there.
As a matter of interest do you have any series 2 puppies that allow you to browse modern websites and play youtube videos?
I don't know about john biles but I do, Ttuuxxx's 214X w/ SeaMonkey 2.23 (auto-updates to stay current) and Flash 11.2r202.
Attachments
214X Top10.jpg
(69.83 KiB) Downloaded 719 times

gcmartin

#32 Post by gcmartin »

We must appreciate the idea that @GoingNuts offers...a guide and/or utilities to do just what he mentions when booting a Puppy, "if you are a Windows user".

To start, some documentation or media could guide on a simple approach to get any user started in PUP initial setup and use, followed by a request to allow PUPPY to acquired those items he mentions here.. If the user allows it, those items would be brought into the Puppy format/fold, while leaving all Windows current files intact.

Now, I'm the first to admit that this is NOT necessarily trivial, but, there may already be some tools in existence to do some of those things. The biggest concern from my point of view is the fact that Windows PC can have multiple IDs on a single PC; so to bring that information into the PUP would requires some drill-down interview questions OR would require a Windows program to "pack everything up" for Puppy to use on its next reboot.

But, these are just some ideas for steps to acquire that information for use in PUP(s).

Happy Holidays to all throughout the remainder of this year. Peace be with you.

User avatar
john biles
Posts: 1458
Joined: Sun 17 Sep 2006, 14:05
Location: Australia
Contact:

#33 Post by john biles »

gcmartin,
Currently running Legacy OS 2.1 Development which is nearing release. Life has slowed down development. It features Opera 12 + Flashplayer 10.3 and Youtube video's play fine.

Legacy OS 2.1 Gamer also includes Opera 12 + Flashplayer 10.3 and can be downloaded from here http://sourceforge.net/projects/legacyoslinux/files/ While it's focus is games there's still enough extras to make it a usable for general tasks.
Legacy OS 2017 has been released.

User avatar
ThoriumBlvd
Posts: 159
Joined: Fri 04 Oct 2013, 09:04
Location: N.E. USA

#34 Post by ThoriumBlvd »

My history sine 1997... W95.2 ---> W98.2 ---> Asus Xandros (702 and 900A) ---> Puppy Slacko 5.5XL. Going from Asus Xandros to Puppy did require the purchase of a "Full Size" "Portable" CD/DVD drive $50. But I have been a very happy camper with the new Kernal and options. Right now I'm using the 900A model with USB. My important stuff in mnt/home, save on shutdown, and reduced the Browser Cache to 8Mb. The browser add-ons make the internet a better experience, and I have also added "Redirect Cleaner", and FireFTP. The FireFOX is 23.0. I have recently discovered a 407 point score on html5 test. I like that this OS fits on a CD even with Java and OO4.

It feels functional and useful enough.
[img]http://www.am3radio.us/image3.jpg[/img] . [img]http://www.am3radio.us/image4.jpg[/img]

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#35 Post by nooby »

I am a bit or too much "anal retarded" om this topic/issue.

Ithink it would kill Puppy and create a lot of strife.

As it is dome now it works as is possible.

To try to bring Puppy to the masses would stop that
creative flow and make it a job without paying for it.

You have to read up on inner motivation how difficult
it is to uphold such. The demands of the crowd is
something else than free flowing exchanges of ideas.

So please give up or you will be the one that killed a very good thing.

Trust me on this :)
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

nooby
Posts: 10369
Joined: Sun 29 Jun 2008, 19:05
Location: SwedenEurope

#36 Post by nooby »

the title is slighly misleading.

It can be a replacement for many things
but a few examples show it can to replace Win whatever.

Take Sony Android phone and maybe other brands as well.

They can upgrade using special made programs that only work
in Win. Not on Linux unless your a good prgrammer and can tweak

Wine to have enough tailor made modifications.

Another example. Genealogy some a bit older but still loved
progranms did only work on win xp. nothing else could
unless you could change the wine part your self

There should be other examples but my my brain turned itself off.

I get back if I find it again :)
I use Google Search on Puppy Forum
not an ideal solution though

zaivala
Posts: 125
Joined: Mon 21 Mar 2011, 07:14

#37 Post by zaivala »

nooby wrote:I am a bit or too much "anal retarded" om this topic/issue.
Trust me on this, you mean "anal retentive". You may be feeling retarded but that ain't the same thing.

Moss
Grammar Nazi

User avatar
NickAu
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon 30 Dec 2013, 04:32
Location: Far North Coast NSW ɹÇ￾punuÊ￾op

#38 Post by NickAu »

/ SeaMonkey 2.23 (auto-updates to stay current) and Flash 11.2r202
As a Ex Windows user I think this is great, All puppies should be able to auto update browser and flash. I do not know how easy that would be but hey you guys are smart. I want to be able to go to help/about( in firefox ) and just update from there no other messing around, Same with flash player...Pease.
Flashplayer 10.3
May I ask why not the latest? eg just before realease install the latest ? And or Fix the get latest flash thing .
As a former Windows user I had it drummed into me Update Update Update to stay secure. And in Windows World flash 10 is anything but, If your read the security warnings that is.

After reading some of the posts about pc specs and browser/flash versions on this forum I have 1 thing to say to some guys.

Guys Noah wants his pc and browser back. Sorry but thats funny LOL.


EDIT
When I first installed puppy 5.7.1 it had an older version of Firefox. No problem to update you say go to PPM. But it wasn't there, I had no idea at first that I had to do a update of ppm first to get access to the new browser. And couldnt just update thru the browser.
[b]Precise Puppy 5.7.1 Retro Fatty Edition. Hp Compaq 2510p 2x Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo Cpu U7700@ 1.33 ghz,2 gig ram Booting from 8 gig micro USB + 32 gig SD card instead of HDD[/b]

User avatar
James C
Posts: 6618
Joined: Thu 26 Mar 2009, 05:12
Location: Kentucky

#39 Post by James C »

NickAu wrote:
Flashplayer 10.3
May I ask why not the latest? eg just before realease install the latest ? And or Fix the get latest flash thing .
As a former Windows user I had it drummed into me Update Update Update to stay secure. And in Windows World flash 10 is anything but, If your read the security warnings that is.
Some, I hesitate to say "all", Intel P3 and older cpu's as well as AMD Athlon XP and older cpu's will not operate with anything newer than Flash 10.3

The later versions of Flash requires a CPU instruction set extension called SSE2, which the Athlon XP, etc. does not support.

User avatar
NickAu
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon 30 Dec 2013, 04:32
Location: Far North Coast NSW ɹÇ￾punuÊ￾op

#40 Post by NickAu »

Some, I hesitate to say "all", Intel P3 and older cpu's as well as AMD Athlon XP and older cpu's will not operate with anything newer than Flash 10.3
I do understand that but It could still be an option for us who did not steal our pc from noah's ark.

My processor on 1 pc is a Pentuin 3 xeon celaron and it runs Xp with the latest FF browsre and Flash no probs and 1 gig ram.
[b]Precise Puppy 5.7.1 Retro Fatty Edition. Hp Compaq 2510p 2x Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo Cpu U7700@ 1.33 ghz,2 gig ram Booting from 8 gig micro USB + 32 gig SD card instead of HDD[/b]

User avatar
mikeb
Posts: 11297
Joined: Thu 23 Nov 2006, 13:56

#41 Post by mikeb »

As a former Windows user I had it drummed into me Update Update Update to stay secure.
And please do tell me...does this contant update, update, update actually prevent infections, trojans, pop ups, browser hijacks, email spammers etc etc etc.... it would appear not otherwise this thread and puppy itself would not exist.

My noahs ark pc's run windows 2000 almost daily.... SP4 is the only update as some software will refuse to work without it.... Windows update is disabled from install and its running firefox 3.6, flash 10.1 and thunderbird 2 for internet access. No antivirus to be seen.
On linux a similar picture is painted...indeed you use puppy which has no update mechanism for itself and I am typing this from something resembling 4.12.

There is a huge market of hyperthetical security bullshit with the constant paranoia driven need for updating everything constantly. Its like a bad religion really, cultivated from some poor design moves in a mainstream OS produced in the 90's.

Perhaps what is really needed is an update to the way we think about such things.

mike

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#42 Post by jpeps »

mikeb wrote:
There is a huge market of hyperthetical security bullshit with the constant paranoia driven need for updating everything constantly.
perhaps..but regarding security, it's clear that threats are becoming ever more sophisticated. I haven't faced any problems by keeping XP updated. Yesterday, my antivirus blocked a site I was researching regarding a medical procedure after allegedly finding a known trojan. I could load the same site on my Puppy and android. False positive? Who knows.

There's also paranoia regarding the evil forces behind updating.

User avatar
mikeb
Posts: 11297
Joined: Thu 23 Nov 2006, 13:56

#43 Post by mikeb »

There's also paranoia regarding the evil forces behind updating.
no need for that... the obsoleting of windows is done by adding dummy funtions to the kernel and then requiring them in updated SDKs giving the friendly 'this is not a win32 executable' message to anything built with them....its a well documented fact...no need to sabotage online updates as that would be very bad for the reputation if it was to be proved to be happening...there is a sense of trust that has to be maintained for continued business.

As for windows updates a brief glance once at what was on offer showed 99% were targetted at IE and active X related weaknesses...since I had either removed or disabled such they seem a little irrelevant. Netbios/samba/rpc...well routers have protect those now. Otherwise the accidental breaking of a system through an update seems the only real problem as the nature of doing so when dealing with systems that are in an unknown state means there is always a risk. Ever let puppy update an existing save file?... I have heard tales of the breakages and slowdowns from installing XP SP3 but I have it as pre merged in my disk so installs as part of a fresh install and it works really well.

Antivirus...hmm always seems a case of locking the gate after the horse has bolted... a new variation of a virus can progagate the internet in minutes which is far faster than any antivirus database can be updated. And then there are those old crusty ones that still seem to abound.

Actually a blacker picture I find is painted of the current situation...that other OS has cleaned up its act significantly. The only real weaknesses appears to be from my reseach is the human factor....someone downloads and installs software in spite of security warnings or the dodgy nature of the site it came from while running as admin or root.... a lack of common sense and general ignorance of whats out there is the thing that is sorely needed of an update.

The other option of course is the totally dumbed down systems that tablets are offering (and windows 8?)...fine for using the internet as a form of interactive television I suppose though for me lack the posibilities that the extremely sophisticated technology computers can offer.

mike

User avatar
greengeek
Posts: 5789
Joined: Tue 20 Jul 2010, 09:34
Location: Republic of Novo Zelande

#44 Post by greengeek »

NickAu wrote: I had it drummed into me Update Update Update to stay secure.
There is a cultural difference here - "update, update, update" can really be summarised as "trust someone else, trust someone else, trust someone else". But if you trust someone else are you really safe?? Many of the MS updates probably allowed NSA backdoors to be created or perpetuated. Many updates give greater powers to the originator of the webpage (eg Youtube) rather than giving control to the end user. Many updates allow a web designer to push adverts down via your PAID bandwidth (that's stealing as far as I can tell...)

What mikeb and others manage to do on older hardware shows that trusting the MS encouragement to update hardware and software is not necessarily a good thing.

Yes, PC security is an important topic, but the more info I read from Kaspersky etc, the more I have come to believe that a very high percentage of the issues facing PC users (especially MS users) are actually driven from a 'nation state' level rather than a 'criminal next door' level.

We can update windows till we are blue in the face - it is still no guarantee of safety.

Also - why would you use the latest version of Flash player that allowed the webpage to cover the video with advertising, if you could use an older version that dsplayed the vid with no advertising superimposed at all?

User avatar
mikeb
Posts: 11297
Joined: Thu 23 Nov 2006, 13:56

#45 Post by mikeb »

Hmm more a case of constant updating simply being not as essential as its portrayed and yes some updates with regard to flash are for the benefit of the host sites not the user. I was quite amazed at the pile of advertising thrown at me while doing a quick flash 11 test....was like having a TV.., and of course the movie does not download to /tmp...and none of this has anything to do with security improvements.
(ps someone mentioned spoofing as an android or similar gives you the mp4 rather than flash...this sort of works on another flash based Tv site i tested recently)

As for education when there is a small toddling child around do you
a, purchase every gadget possible to wrap your home in cotton wool to prevent any possibility of accidents with such as sockets, cupboard doors and so on or...
b, teach said child as soon as they are aware of such items and feel the need to explore them the dangers within and that such should be left well alone.

One example from many years ago...i was at some wedding and there was a boy of around 4-5 years old present. There was a commotion and apparently he had bit through and broke a wine glass...fortunately he did not cut himself but it appeared to be the case that he had never been allowed to encounter glass drinking vessels so did not realise the dangers of such items since plastic can handle a good chomp.

Being prepared for danger or try to prevent avoid contact with it.... what is the best approach? Humans do have to face the big wide world at some point and computer usage has become a daily part of that world at least for some.

As it happens my crusty old outdated systems have been used regularly by 2 small boys since the age of 4 ... after several years they still seem to be intact (the computers and the boys :D ... not sure about me )

mike

User avatar
mikeb
Posts: 11297
Joined: Thu 23 Nov 2006, 13:56

#46 Post by mikeb »

Boring addition.....

I was at a clients and they had 3 machines in their office.

All identical running windows 7 ...updated and with AV in the usual fashion.

Only one of the machines had any problem with viruses and similar intrusions and it was the one used by the woman who was well known for downloading various 'freebies' off the net when she was supposed to be doing her job....

mike

User avatar
NickAu
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon 30 Dec 2013, 04:32
Location: Far North Coast NSW ɹÇ￾punuÊ￾op

#47 Post by NickAu »

We can update windows till we are blue in the face - it is still no guarantee of safety.
Correct.
Most of the time its human error that infects a pc, Most of the guys here Know pc's.
But what about the avarage mum or dad who buy a pc for little Timmy they are bombarded with the update update message. Yes antivirus is reactive,ie they need to see a virus before they can treat it but thats not always the case. Malware writers are getting more smart by the day. And finding new ways of infecting a pc everyday. Eg Cryptolocker, It comes as an email attachment, or wrapped in an exe to a known prog and it encrypts all the mapped drives on your system then wants 300 bucks to unencrypt the drives,Guess what now Antivirus picks it up and stops it, Too bad if you did not update or even have an antivirus. Oh and it installs itself in the background the first thing you know about it is you get the ransom screen.

I look at Unbuntu and all the updates it needs, Installed unduntu 12 lts from the unbuntu site after install it needed 300 yes 300 level 3 updates mostly "To prevent a remote user running this or that script"

In a few days I would like to play a little game with the Moderators permission.

I will post a few windows log scanning tools with some instructions on how to use them. Then if you guys on windows run those tools and post the logs we will see just how clean and updated your systems are.
Who wants to play? I promise you the tools are harmless and used by malware removal experts daily.
[b]Precise Puppy 5.7.1 Retro Fatty Edition. Hp Compaq 2510p 2x Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo Cpu U7700@ 1.33 ghz,2 gig ram Booting from 8 gig micro USB + 32 gig SD card instead of HDD[/b]

User avatar
mikeb
Posts: 11297
Joined: Thu 23 Nov 2006, 13:56

#48 Post by mikeb »

It comes as an email attachment, or wrapped in an exe to a known prog a
requiring user intervention then?

Yes playing with tools sounds fun....always curious. I used to visit dodgy links inemails just to see what would happen.

Perhaps start a fresh thread and post the link here

mike

jpeps
Posts: 3179
Joined: Sat 31 May 2008, 19:00

#49 Post by jpeps »

re: updating. I frequently update my own software..at least the software that I use the most. When I find a feature that could be better automated, or a bug, I write it in. That really seems like the point of writing software to begin with...you can always keep improving it.

Developers of commercial apps have to continually respond to user requests. The best developers are very good at it, and give you personal responses for intelligent requests. We can see that in Puppy with JWM, gtkdialog, etc. That's not to say that everyone will be pleased with change, but change is the nature of software.

Security is an ongoing struggle, and developers are mandated to run safe programs to every extent possible. Sorry if this sounds overly naive to some folks. Given ongoing and rapidly changing demands with hardware, etc., I can't see much need for deliberately obsoleting otherwise useful and commercially viable software. Whether we need the latest devices, clothes, cars, etc., is another issue. I know people want them and hopefully provides for my retirement.

User avatar
NickAu
Posts: 183
Joined: Mon 30 Dec 2013, 04:32
Location: Far North Coast NSW ɹÇ￾punuÊ￾op

#50 Post by NickAu »

mikeb wrote:
It comes as an email attachment, or wrapped in an exe to a known prog a
requiring user intervention then?

Yes playing with tools sounds fun....always curious. I used to visit dodgy links inemails just to see what would happen.

Perhaps start a fresh thread and post the link here

mike
In most cases mike you are right. In most cases. But there are things that need no user intervention to infect a Windows Pc, Anybody remember the Blaster worm or Sasser, When Windows Xp was first released the firewall was turned off by default and people would go on the net to get antivirus and firewall they were infected within minutes. Windows Defender( yes) and its updates were Instrumental in stopping this. Tell me how unimportant updates are now. So was the use of a firewall. To this day Defender still looks for those things.

Is Malware Infection Likely?

Nobody knows how many computers are infected with malware, but informed estimates range from 40% to almost 90% of computers running Windows operating systems. Infection rates are lower for MacOS and Linux systems, but this is not necessarily because Windows is an easier target. Indeed, recent versions of Windows are much improved in security. Rather, more malware authors target Windows machines because an effective attack will give them control of more computers.
The risk that any given computer is infected with malware is therefore quite high unless skilled computer security specialists are putting a substantial amount of effort into securing the system. With time, any machine on which security updates are not installed promptly is virtually guaranteed to become infected. It is however overwhelmingly likely that the malware in question will be working on obtaining credit card numbers, obtaining eBay account passwords, obtaining online banking passwords, sending spam, or launching denial of service attacks, rather than spying on specific individuals or organizations.


Source
https://ssd.eff.org/tech/malware

Self-Deleting Batch File Method

The Catch22 Self-deleting Executables article discusses the self-deleting batch file method. The article states the method "works because MS-DOS batch files are able to delete themselves." All an executable has to do if it wants to delete itself is to create a batch file with code to delete its executable." Next the executable needs to spawn off the batch file using CreateProcess, and then should exit immediately". The batch script will proceed to delete the executable then itself. On a system this action removes valuable information about the infection vector.
Source
http://journeyintoir.blogspot.com.au/20 ... -file.html

Just some Light reading for you guys.
Malware removal on Windows is a Hi skill thing, as I said you need to really know what you are doing in removing malware in Windows without damaging the OS.

To train in malware removal,just as a start there are over 1000 pages of information you need to read and be tested on. Then there is the study, the reading of logs, and practice files, On avarage it will be up to 12 months before you are allowed to actually lay hands on a real infected pc.And then its under supervision only.
[b]Precise Puppy 5.7.1 Retro Fatty Edition. Hp Compaq 2510p 2x Intel(R) Core(TM) 2 Duo Cpu U7700@ 1.33 ghz,2 gig ram Booting from 8 gig micro USB + 32 gig SD card instead of HDD[/b]

Post Reply