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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Woof-based Puppy builders wanted
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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10827
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 06:32    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
Just to be clear.. I am not gone.

I have ideas but I severely lack time and that will probably be the case for a couple to several more months.

Just to capture BK's vision of woof..
Quote:
For a long time I have dreamt of a "magical script" that could download packages of some other distro, cut them right down to Puppy-size, then build a Puppy Linux live-CD -- and do all of this totally automatically.

(Ref)

-----------------------------------

While I am scarce I am contactable, though response may not be immediate. Feel free to contact me, especially future distro builders. Smile

Cheers.

I'm not gone either, If I'm needed I will make the time to help out. I would rather help out and give Idea's.
Jeff

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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1698

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 07:53    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:

I'm not gone either, If I'm needed I will make the time to help out. I would rather help out and give Idea's.
Jeff

Nice to see you're 'round ttuuxxx Very Happy
Help and ideas is always good, though puppy builders (ie release managers/lead developers) is what puppy needs most right now I think.
Few years back you have expressed some interest for puppy 4.2/5 and then latter puppy 6. What about puppy 7?...

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ttuuxxx


Joined: 05 May 2007
Posts: 10827
Location: Ontario Canada,Sydney Australia

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 09:10    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
ttuuxxx wrote:

I'm not gone either, If I'm needed I will make the time to help out. I would rather help out and give Idea's.
Jeff

Nice to see you're 'round ttuuxxx Very Happy
Help and ideas is always good, though puppy builders (ie release managers/lead developers) is what puppy needs most right now I think.
Few years back you have expressed some interest for puppy 4.2/5 and then latter puppy 6. What about puppy 7?...

I've compiled just about every aspect of puppy in the past, But haven't had much free time on my hands ever since I started my last job 3yrs ago and had a daughter and went back to school at nights and my wife does 24hr shifts, lol I've been very busy. But I could work with a developer to share the load and get things off the ground. I'm a bit rusty, haven't really done much linux do to the time thing, but I'm finished school in August, which will free up some time, If there is a real need, I'll be here to help.
Did Barry really retire, he talked about it for years, but I haven't see the notice.
Jeff

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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1698

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 11:02    Post subject:  

ttuuxxx wrote:
[
Did Barry really retire, he talked about it for years, but I haven't see the notice.

Do not know about retirement but certainly looks much less active.
First he put woof in maintenance mode, then he suggested woof-CE for puppy development, then he started working on a new quirky based in T2 and Ubuntu Tahr alpha, finally a month ago put out his quirky build system and since then he is quite.
Who knows what will happen next, but I would keep my hopes low.

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stemsee


Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Posts: 442
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 11:31    Post subject: seems to me ... !
Subject description: debiandog
 

It seems to me that DebianDog is the place where it is all happening! With tireless maintaners, coordination, energy, innovation and talent.

"When one door closes..."
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2940
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 12:51    Post subject:  

I wish I could help. I've got a couple ideas for some interesting (to me) Pups... but I barely know enough to troubleshoot things that I accidentally break. Knowledge of how things work is one of the big things, if not the biggest, that separates user from dev -- and by that measure, I am most definitely a user at this time...

I guess what I'm asking is, how and where can I learn the highly technical details of how Puppy functions...? I can read bash script (with a little help from Google) and I've plenty of time...

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 13:50    Post subject:  

starhawk wrote:
I guess what I'm asking is, how and where can I learn the highly technical details of how Puppy functions...? I can read bash script (with a little help from Google) and I've plenty of time...


Really? Ok, here we go.

---

Step 1: Read this: https://github.com/iguleder/roar-ng-ii/blob/master/skeleton/initramfs/init. This is roar-ng-ii's /init script (Roar NG II was the minimalist distro Iguleder worked before he switched his attention to LazyUx and packdude - I wanted to show you the /init script from Lazyux but I can't find any).

It is the first program executed by a waking-up kernel (everything before that is "boot loader" and "kernel initialisation" which is from the realm beyond puppy).

This script, at 287 lines, is a lot shorter and simpler than Puppy's init script but it does more or less the same thing, if you can understand this then it would help you to better grasp puppy's /init script. It is also beautifully written and is heavily commented to help with your understanding.

---

Step 2: The last line of /init will execute /sbin/init, which is a busybox binary. /sbin/init will do actions according to what you tell it to do in /etc/inittab, so go and read https://github.com/iguleder/roar-ng-ii/blob/master/skeleton/rootfs/etc/inittab. Notice the first few lines.

---

Step 3: Ahh, so /etc/inittab instructs /sbin/init to execute /etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit as the first thing to do! May as well read what what rc.sysinit does ... https://github.com/iguleder/roar-ng-ii/blob/master/skeleton/rootfs/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit.

---

Step 4: Finished already? Don't get the clue on what's next? Well as soon as rc.sysinit finishes, it returns back to /sbin/init, which will find stuff to do. Hint: look at those tty1, tty2 lines ... hmm, all of them seems to be running getty (="get tty", which runs login, which display the user/name prompt); but Puppy never ask me for username and password. Perhaps we should look at Puppy's *real* inittab https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/blob/master/woof-code/rootfs-skeleton/etc/inittab ...

Eh, what's this? Puppy's inittab for tty1 says "mingetty --autologin". That's not the same as roar-ng-ii's. Mingetty is a replacement for getty, and "--autologin" means what exactly what it is: "login automatically". So what happens after one logins? the "login" program will launch the "login shell".

"login shell" is just a normal "shell" (ie, /bin/sh) that will do certain things because the shell executed at "login time". There are other deeper meanings, but let's skimp on them at the moment.

A standard, posix "login shell" will first execute ("sources", to be exact) anything in /etc/profile, so lets look at that ... https://github.com/iguleder/roar-ng-ii/blob/master/skeleton/rootfs/etc/profile.


---

Step 5: When done, the "login shell" will also run $HOME/.profile (in this case, user is "root" so its $HOME is "/root", so lets look at roar-ng-ii's root folder ... https://github.com/iguleder/roar-ng-ii/tree/master/skeleton/rootfs/root.

Eh! Roar-ng-ii's root folder is empty, there is no .profile !!! So what happens next?

What happens next, is, the shell becomes interactive (=ie accepts input, waiting for your command) and display the familiar "#" prompt that you love and see from terminal. You've dropped at that Linux console. This is something that you only see if you choose to "Exit X" from jwm, usually accompanied by scary messages about how to run xorgwizard if you can't get the graphical desktop started again - but be assured, there is nothing scary here.

Hang one a minute, you say. Puppy does *NOT* stop at Linux console, not unless *I* tell it to stop by giving pfix=nox as the boot parameter. You can't be right! Well, my dear, you are looking at roar-ng-ii's /root/.profile here, and indeed if you boot roar-ng-ii you will be dropped at the linux console. Perhaps then we should look at *Puppy*'s /root/.profile, here: https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/blob/master/woof-code/rootfs-skeleton/root/.profile, should we?

Aha !!! It is *definitely* not empty. And what it is near the end of the file? ... it runs "xwin" ... That's it, it starts the graphical desktop !

---

Step 6: What's next? There is still so much story to tell, but before that, we need to step back and re-trace our path. In most of the steps above, we have been examining roar-ng-ii's files. The order is identical, the commands that get executed is identical, the rough purpose of the scripts are identical - I hope by this stage you have a clear understanding of what every script does.

When you are ready, you should then feel brave enough to look at the real thing:
Puppy's init https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/blob/master/woof-code/boot/initrd-tree0/init - from Step 1
Puppy's inittab https://github.com/iguleder/roar-ng-ii/blob/master/skeleton/rootfs/etc/inittab from step 2.
Puppy's rc.sysinit https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/blob/master/woof-code/rootfs-skeleton/etc/rc.d/rc.sysinit from step 3
Puppy's /etc/profile https://github.com/puppylinux-woof-CE/woof-CE/blob/master/woof-code/rootfs-skeleton/etc/profile from step 4
And you you have already reviewed Puppy's /root/.profile from step 5.

And when you feel you have understood them, you will see scripts from above will call other scripts - make sure you go and read them and understand them too. Only when you've done that, you will be prepared to continue the journey to the wonders of Graphical Desktop and Puppy event system.

---

To be continued (when I'm motivated enough and have enough free time).

EDIT: typos.

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Last edited by jamesbond on Mon 26 May 2014, 01:34; edited 2 times in total
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 13:54    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:
01micko wrote:
Just to be clear.. I am not gone.


Not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing Shocked
Looks like you scared everyone away Razz Laughing


Laughing

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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2940
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 14:04    Post subject:  

Shocked

...that is a lot of reading.

Let me grab some lunch and I'll get started... can't concentrate on an empty stomach! Wink

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stemsee


Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Posts: 442
Location: London

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 14:20    Post subject: In a nushell!  

@JamesBond

That's just what I was looking for ... but didn't know how to ask?
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starhawk

Joined: 22 Nov 2010
Posts: 2940
Location: Everybody knows this is nowhere...

PostPosted: Sun 25 May 2014, 15:12    Post subject:  

@jamesbond -- started reading that first script, and my brain melted a little.

I don't think today's a day I should be trying to parse that stuff. I've bookmarked it for later...

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
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Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Fri 30 May 2014, 16:27    Post subject: Next-gen Woof  

Mavrothal sparked the interested by posting this thread. Let me add to it: how about building puppy from tahr/utopic, *directly from ubuntu repo*, no conversion to PET required?

I have a proof-of-concept under-300-lines script that builds puppy.sfs *directly* from Ubuntu, tested with trusty and utopic (32-bit).
It uses genuine Woof-CE puppy scripts and genuine Woof-CE initrd (kernel is Fatdog's but that's because I'm lazy). So far it builds command-line only (bash, dash, tar, grep, gawk), but it's easy to extend. Boots under qemu.

Note:
1. This is proof-of-concept and *unfinished work*.
2. Only builds puppy.sfs. The initrd I used for testing is manually prepared (easy, only 3 steps - copy DISTRO_SPEC, edit DISTRO_SPEC, comment out one stupid line in /init, then usual cpio)
3. Tested with trusty and utopic, it should be easy to extend this to Debian too (any versions).
4. The only requirement is you need to have recent-enough full version of "dpkg" (and dpkg-deb) installed (easy, if you're under ubuntu-based puppy just "apt-get dpkg"; for other puppies just compile from source)

5. Script *only builds* from Debian-style packages. Don't ask for building from slackware packages, RPM packages, etc - question like that > /dev/null.
6. You still need Woof-CE as all the puppy core lives there.
7. Uses native Debian package manager. Does not use PET.

Any interest? Comments?

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stemsee


Joined: 27 Jun 2013
Posts: 442
Location: London

PostPosted: Fri 30 May 2014, 17:54    Post subject: very interesting!
Subject description: no pets?
 

Built entirely from .debs no pets?
Your 64 bit kernel?
So resulting sfs has full xorg/xinput etc?
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neerajkolte


Joined: 10 Feb 2014
Posts: 297
Location: Pune, India.

PostPosted: Sat 31 May 2014, 00:22    Post subject: Re: Next-gen Woof
Subject description: very interesting
 

jamesbond wrote:
*directly from ubuntu repo*, no conversion to PET required?
Uses native Debian package manager. Does not use PET.
Seems very interesting.
For me having and maintaining pet packages repos seemed like having a parallel universe.
If it uses native debian package manager and take care of dependencies that would really be great.

Then again dosen't Debiandog do exactly that.
I haven't used it but it says so.

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jamesbond

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PostPosted: Sat 31 May 2014, 01:22    Post subject:  

stemsee wrote:
Built entirely from .debs no pets?

Yes.
Quote:
Your 64 bit kernel?

As a stop-gap. We should use proper 32-bit kernel instead.

Quote:
So resulting sfs has full xorg/xinput etc?

I have not included Xorg in the build yet, but when I do, then plan is to bring use Ubuntu's native Xorg. Thus, if Ubuntu's xorg support xinput, then this will do, too.

neerajkolte wrote:
If it uses native debian package manager and take care of dependencies that would really be great.
Yes, it does. It uses native debian package manager (dpkg) and it does take care of dependencies. Dpkg is not the one that usually sees though, people usually use apt-get or synaptics (both are one-step higher than dpkg and uses dpkg internally). I plan to get there too.

Quote:
Then again dosen't Debiandog do exactly that.
I haven't used it but it says so.

Hahaha, yeah. Many roads to Rome, eh? Debiandog takes an existing Debian LiveCD and converts it to puppy. The result is fully Debian to the core, yet feels and works like puppy. Saintless has done a good work on that.
Me, I take the Ubuntu (or Debian) packages and build them up. The result is Puppy to the core, yet will work and is fully compatible with Ubuntu/Debian (I hope Laughing )

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