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 Forum index » Taking the Puppy out for a walk » Announcements
Woof-based Puppy builders wanted
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01micko


Joined: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 7797
Location: qld

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jun 2014, 01:39    Post subject:  

I just want to make one point with this post - a very important point

Moat wrote:
(ha - not that I know enough to be of much testing value, anyways! Just learning, here...)


Wrong. Your ideas and reports are as important as any persons. Doesn't matter the issue, even if you think it is unrelated.

Every slightest bug report is important. When I do a release, I go over the whole previous thread and as many as I can before that and try to reproduce and eliminate the issue. No matter what you test, if something isn't right, report it. It may not be fixed immediately, it may never get fixed, but at least it is documented and will probably show up in a google or duckduckgo search.

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Moat

Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jun 2014, 02:02    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:
Start from the top: make sure contribution to Woof-CE is *not* waste.
How? Get improvement in Woof-CE to the masses!


Completely, totally agree!

jamesbond wrote:
How? By releasing puppies based on Woof-CE, more releases, more often!


Now this is the part that worries me (the noob enduser) somewhat, as it seems all too often that new "releases" means non-functional packages and new bugs to chase...? I.e. - more of the same time/effort getting my system set up and running how I'd prefer, and more time/effort spent by you good folks/devs swatting bugs and helping us noobs out.

Hence my thought re; the possibility (would it even be??) of devising a mechanism to allow incorporating Woof-CE improvements (i.e. - "updates" via .pet or similar, installable packages) into an existing, fully-supported LTS Puppy - ideally, without breaking anything. Leaving the full available range of previously compiled, proven packages intact and functional... so all of that hard work wouldn't go to waste!

Is that even a possibility? Question

Seems like that approach could be the best of both worlds - getting these great Woof-CE improvements to the masses on a regular basis (via an update mechanism) AND preserve all of the previous time/effort/work that went before, in support of the base, core system and it's package/.pet collection.

And over a 5 year LTS support cycle... are you kidding me? In that environment, the potential of Puppy to develop and grow into a OOTB world-beating Linux distro could be mind=blown! Shocked

Not that it isn't, already - of course. Smile

Bob
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Moat

Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jun 2014, 02:07    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:
Well Bob (Moat) I'm posting from 666philb's Tahr (built from woof-CE) now.


Yes! Keeping a close eye on that one. Next trip to McD's for a coffee and burger w/the lappie (as I'm on dial-up) - I'll just have to snag it and have a peek...

Bob
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Moat

Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jun 2014, 02:14    Post subject:  

mavrothal wrote:

There are many discussions throughout the web about it. But here is a short rundown....
Linux fails miserably at the desktop.


Yes - I'm coming to grips with that notion. Frustrating, though! I see so much potential as a fully customizable, all-around home desktop, that just falls this >< short... Part of the fun and attraction, I suppose... Smile And it IS gettin' there!

Bob

Last edited by Moat on Sun 01 Jun 2014, 02:24; edited 1 time in total
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Moat

Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jun 2014, 02:17    Post subject:  

01micko wrote:

Wrong. Your ideas and reports are as important as any persons. Doesn't matter the issue, even if you think it is unrelated.


Thanks, Mick - I'll take that to heart, and do better. Promise! Smile

Bob
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1890
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Sun 01 Jun 2014, 17:02    Post subject:  

Anyone interested in building Tahr64? Wink

I'm too busy to lead the development of a Puppy (that's why my contributions are smaller and scattered around many areas), but I think the LTS nature gives us some breathing space. I'll help wherever I can.

Mint sticks to this version and intends to do backports in the future - maybe we could build a Mint Puppy Idea

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2134
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun 2014, 03:27    Post subject:  

Final teaser:

I've jwm, rox-filer, rxvt-unicode to install and run - all pure Ubuntu packages. This includes gtk2 (rox-filer pulls gtk2) and Xorg (this is the full Xorg - equivalent to have Xorg High installed), with minimal modification to puppy base. Runs with xorg autoconfig (ie no xorg.conf required). Starts desktop with "xinit" (xwin is broken).

Compressed size of the puppy.sfs for i386 arch is 63M - this is *without* minimisation (no cleanup etc).

Building for 32-bit tahr (tested - works)
./deb-build.sh

Building for 64-bit tahr (tested - works)
ARCH=amd64 ./deb-build.sh

Building for 32-bit unicorn (tested for CLI only - works)
VERSION=utopic ./deb-build.sh

Building for 64-bit unicorn (not tested)
ARCH=amd64 VERSION=utopic ./deb-build.sh

Building for 32-bit debian sid (works)
REPO_URL=http://ftp.jp.debian.org/debian REPO_PKGDB=Packages.xz VERSION=sid deb-build.sh

Note: default ARCH is i386, default VERSION is tahr (=trusty), default REPO_URL is for Ubuntu.

All of the above builds uses the same pkglist listed below (except utopic 32-bit where put %exit after gettext).

All test are done with Fatdog's 64 bit kernel, with Woof-CE's initrd. zdrv.sfs is Fatdog's kernel-modules.sfs. Testing done in qemu, in a loopback ext2 filesystem.

deb-build.sh is 350 lines long now.
The package list looks like this:
Code:
# ubuntu puppy pkglist
#
# generic commands: %exit %include %makesfs
# special package commands: %get_pkgs_by_priority %puppy %bblinks %remove
# installer commands: %bootstrap %dpkg %depend %nodepend
# startup default: bootstrap, nodepend
#
# extra param for commands, params can be quoted
# %include     include-file
# %makesfs     output.sfs [squashfs-param]
# %pkg_by_prio priority ["inclusion-egrep"] ["exclusion-egrep"]
# %bblinks     [nousr]
# %remove      pkgname ...
#
# start with %pkgs_by_prio required. Otherwise start with libc6.
#

# base
%pkgs_by_priority "required" ".*lib.*|^tzdata|^bash|^dash|^lsb-base|^ncurses.*|bsdutils|kmod|mount|insserv|mount" "^klibc|.*plymouth.*|mountall"
%depend # enable dependency
coreutils
grep
gawk
sed
tar
gzip
cpio
mingetty
dialog
gettext

# extra
screen # useful for debugging
file   # check file types

# desktop
%nodepend # udev brings craps of dependencies, so don't do it
libkmod2
udev
%depend   # but enable dep for xorg, makes life simpler for us
xserver-xorg
xinit
x11-utils
x11-xserver-utils

# window managers etc
jwm
rox-filer # this will pull-in gtk2
rxvt-unicode

# final
%remove initscripts ifupdown sysv-rc upstart mountall # remove extremely toxic packages
busybox-static
%bblinks # fallback for missing utilities
%puppy
%makesfs puppy.sfs -comp gzip -Xcompression-level 1



Are you interested? Wink

EDIT: Test building from Debian too. Add libkmod2 for debian.

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Last edited by jamesbond on Mon 02 Jun 2014, 05:07; edited 2 times in total
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Iguleder


Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 1890
Location: Israel, somewhere in the beautiful desert

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun 2014, 04:15    Post subject:  

Sounds great! 63 MB sounds too good to be true.
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mavrothal


Joined: 24 Aug 2009
Posts: 1603

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun 2014, 06:30    Post subject:  

jamesbond wrote:

Are you interested? Wink

Put the ISOs out already! Laughing
(and the git/fossil repo Wink )

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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2134
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun 2014, 07:56    Post subject:  

iguleder wrote:
Sounds great! 63 MB sounds too good to be true.
That's compressed with "-comp xz -Xbcj x86" - and the size of the puppy main SFS *only* (no initrd, kernel, kernel-modules, syslinux, etc).

mavrothal wrote:
jamesbond wrote:

Are you interested? Wink

Put the ISOs out already! Laughing

Haha, no ISO. It's not quite functional, it only has rxvt, busybox, jwm and rox Smile
Quote:
(and the git/fossil repo Wink )
yes, I will publish in as branch in my Woof-CE git repo fork.
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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1026
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun 2014, 21:52    Post subject: xorg, xwin and xorg.conf and others  

1-/
jamesbond wrote:
Runs with xorg autoconfig (ie no xorg.conf required). Starts desktop with "xinit" (xwin is broken).
.


James,

xwin needs a xorg.conf, I found this out back when I was mage2 (Mageia2) building. I ended up copying a good generic, 444'ing it so it wasn't overwritten and putting it the default /root when building, it gets overwritten in ram when booting anyway for your live xorg to match the actual config but the old one appears back when starting up pre loading so xwin will work.

2-/ Racy6, Mageia 2 and Puppy Opensuse 2.3

Just d/l'd a new woof-ce and found that the racy6 build system is broken. Since barry's racy6 and my 5.9 are both for t2-9.0 i'm going to use his woof-config and fix this problem at the same time as I incorperate and rebuild my 5.9 . I want to try to use T2's repositry directly, rather than copy individual files to another directory, minimal work I think as it's similar to what I did with my Opensuse 2.3 puppy last year (which has 12 repositries in it's set). ? Is someone rebuilding PPM, if so can they allow for this as they have a 'controller' and repositry for each group of apps.

I really MUST do a clone and local git and upload my changes and additions this month!

Can someone DISABLE woof-ce Mageia Cauldron ASAP please from being built, we still have mageia 2's lists in ours, however Mageia now has mageia 5 in the cauldron repositries.

3-/ X86-64 thought?

I was wondering if those building 64bit puppys \ would consider \ are \ doing their stuff using > woof-arch/x86-64 and woof-distro/x86-64, it's how i've got the Opensuse x86-64 rough coding. It might allow some cross-building to occur.

It looks like i will have some time this month so I will start my list!

regards to all
scsijon
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scsijon

Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 1026
Location: the australian mallee

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun 2014, 22:10    Post subject:  

Moat wrote:


Hence my thought re; the possibility (would it even be??) of devising a mechanism to allow incorporating Woof-CE improvements (i.e. - "updates" via .pet or similar, installable packages) into an existing, fully-supported LTS Puppy - ideally, without breaking anything. Leaving the full available range of previously compiled, proven packages intact and functional... so all of that hard work wouldn't go to waste!

Is that even a possibility? Question Bob


Bob, it's only possible until you add a package or new application to the default set, unfortunately, as then you bring an unknown into the equation, such as a link, altered configuration file, etc. and that can all that's needed to stuff up your puppy. I tried it with LTS and T2 a few builds ago and one of my myz (no use apps) woof builds, it's just too easy to break. It's better to add individual package updates, and even then they need to be in the right order with reboots at the right time to bring in individual command and lib files to work, else it's a toasted update.

sorry
scsijon
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2134
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Mon 02 Jun 2014, 22:21    Post subject: Re: xorg, xwin and xorg.conf and others  

scsijon wrote:
1-/
jamesbond wrote:
Runs with xorg autoconfig (ie no xorg.conf required). Starts desktop with "xinit" (xwin is broken).
.


James,

xwin needs a xorg.conf, I found this out back when I was mage2 (Mageia2) building. I ended up copying a good generic, 444'ing it so it wasn't overwritten and putting it the default /root when building, it gets overwritten in ram when booting anyway for your live xorg to match the actual config but the old one appears back when starting up pre loading so xwin will work.

Correct, that's why it is "broken". xwin was originally written in the old days where Xorg was much less reliable than today. It has a lot of workaround to ensure that a user get a graphical desktop - but many of these workarounds are not necessary anymore (some, to the point of being harmful). Example: the old "I change my xorg.conf but my old settings always comes back!" was an attempt by xwin to have hardware-independent setup, so that puppy can be used in multiple machines without problem (xwin keeps a backup of xorg.conf for every graphics hardware it has found before, and copy that backup to xorg.conf every time it is called - thus if you want to change something in xorg.conf, you have to change in that xorg.conf AND in that xorg.conf.backup). Modern xorg.conf needs none of these - just start without xorg.conf and lets it autoconfigure.

I can modify xwin but for today, running "xinit" will do Smile (until xwin is fixed).

Glad to hear from you, scsijon.

cheers!

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Moat

Joined: 16 Jul 2013
Posts: 177

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jun 2014, 00:05    Post subject:  

Thanks for explaining that, scsijon. Even with my limited knowledge of it all, that does help me see how it could throw a wrench into the works... or at the very least, each Woof-level change would then tend to be impossibly complex in trying to accomodate every possible tossed wrench.

Thanks!

Bob
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jamesbond

Joined: 26 Feb 2007
Posts: 2134
Location: The Blue Marble

PostPosted: Tue 03 Jun 2014, 02:00    Post subject:  

Teaser time over. Head here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?t=94101 for the real thing. Let the fun begin Laughing
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