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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Additional Software (PETs, n' stuff) » Engineering/Science/Simulation
LinuxCNC (EMC2) on Puppy
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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2014, 08:44    Post subject:  

Thanks again Toni for all your help and work. I will answer your questions later this morning, but I have a few more clues, I think:

When I was running in DebDog w/ lincnc2.5 I chose instead of sim>axis>gantry the entry for latency test. This was simpler because it gave only one error message in terminal: 'inserti rtai_hal not permitted.'

I think that is the crucial problem, not necessarily apic.

So with that single error I checked the error message log and saw another message at that time 'rtai_hal.ko not found.'

Okay so it seems to me that the problem might be as simple as a file not found because of file location.

LinuxCNC keeps its kernel modules in an unusual place, puts a link to it in the usual module location (/lib/modules/kernelversion/kernel/) and also runs a script that automatically loads and unloads modules.

I'm thinking that something in this is broken.

What I'd like to do is see if I can load rtai_hal.ko manually, check that it is indeed loaded, and then run the latency test. If it runs, great.

If it doesn't, check again that rtai_hal is still loaded.

If not then the auto load script has removed it.

I am trying to learn more about loading and unloading modules and the module commands insmod, depmod, modprobe, etc.

This is a very good page for explaining this:

http://www.tldp.org/LDP/lkmpg/2.6/html/x44.html

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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2014, 13:01    Post subject:  

After more trials and looking at logs, I now think that rtai_hal does briefly get loaded but aborts when local apic is configured but doesn't work.

As a guess, the much earlier kernel (2.6.24-16-rtai) in the Ubuntu 8.04 liveCD version handles the Thinkpad 600e bios apic bios quirks better than the much later 3. series kernels. These were actually Pentium II / Win 98/2000 era computers and onboard processor APIC was new and just being developed -- formerly handled by support chips. APIC was first utilized (with problems) in WinXP. So my thinking is that early kernels were able to work with older computers differences/quirks for apic.


Toni, to answer your question about how I upgraded from the original 8.04 Ubuntu/LinuxCNC version to 2.54 version of LinuxCNC ----

I just followed the instructions on the LinuxCNC Site. First do this:

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UpdatingTo2.4

then do this:

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?UpdatingTo2.5

It sounds like you are trying to do it on a frugal system, while I made my changes on a full install.

Maybe I can remaster that full install to a liveCD again and get the ISO to you?

I remember doing that once way back in the Ubuntu 7.04 days


Oh, also to answer your other question, I went through DMESG and logs in the Ubuntu linuxcnc installation and there are NO references to either APIC or LAPIC. I did a search on each of those terms.


I also have found a reference to IBM Thinkpad 600X working well with linuxcnc Ubuntu 8.04 here:

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?Latency-Test

This also provides a lot of information about other computers.

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anikin

Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 1020

PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2014, 14:20    Post subject:  

vtpup,

did you try acpi=off and apm=off boot options?
machines of that era did not support acpi at all and didn't work well with apm too. If there are any power config options in BIOS, those should be disabled too.
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Revolverve


Joined: 08 Nov 2008
Posts: 262
Location: 45°17'28.8"N 72°16'08.8"W_avatar/ mira.ca

PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2014, 17:01    Post subject:  

Look already a complex project...choosing old laptop to run it make it harder.

&more problem could come http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/18-computer/25859-lenovo-thinkpad-600x-lpt-doesnt-work?start=20

Anybody happen to know how come there is a realtime option in startup services or do I miss something there..
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 17 Sep 2014, 18:01    Post subject:  

Edit: Second testing version uploaded. More information here:
http://www.murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=800024#800024

Hi, Vtpup.
Testing iso for you. Please, anyone reading this do not mirror it. It is not ready for public use. I will keep it available for download long ehough.

I can only say Ubuntu is much different from Debian and it is much harder to shape it and modify it than Debian. I will never try the same again with Ubuntu even if it can be made fast and small like Puppy.

Download link for Ubuntu8.4-test-1.iso - 415Mb
md5sum 21c895bc91293d7386d7e0eda24f210a

It is the same ubuntu that works on your machine with some removed programs and upgraded to version 2.5.4 linuxcnc.
If you prefer to burn the cd use the first boot option only (no changes to the system menu). others will not work,
It will boot to command prompt as user ubuntu (the passwword is blank field - no password).
You can type also sudo login and login as root with password root.
startx does not work yet. Type xinit and then in xinit terminal type jwm or blackbox (the choice is yours). Open new terminal from the menu and type linuxcnc

You can make easy frugal install by copying /casper folder from the CD to sda6 and adding this boot code:
Code:
title Ubuntu-testing
rootnoverify (hd0,5)
kernel /casper/vmlinuz boot=casper
initrd /casper/initrd.gz

You can add swapon to the kernel boot line to auto-swap partition or execute swapon /dev/sdX from terminal after boot.
It will boot to command prompt. Login as root with password root. User ubuntu is not active from frugal install.

No way to use save file (initrd.gz needs patching to use casper-rw save file).
You can make very easy full install and continue removing or adding programs with apt-get but we will discuss this option if linuxcnc works and I didn't break anything important for your machine.
There is much more cleaning to be done and we can make it smaller.
As it is now the system is very fast on my 128Mb machine.
If you see it as good option at least as full install I will try to shape and clean it better.

Toni

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Last edited by saintless on Sat 20 Sep 2014, 09:37; edited 1 time in total
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 02:38    Post subject:  

Revolverve wrote:
Anybody happen to know how come there is a realtime option in startup services or do I miss something there..

Seems the service realtime is auto-created from linuxcnc package.
Boot with empty save file/folder and remove linuxcnc:
Code:
apt-get purge linuxcnc

Then type rcconf and it is not there anymore.
Then install it again:
Code:
apt-get update
apt-get install linuxcnc

Then check rcconf again (kill rcconf if there is error message):
Code:
killall rcconf
rcconf

Again realtime is disabled at the end of the list.
I don't know if it has to be manually enabled or not.
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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 10:23    Post subject:  

anikin wrote:
vtpup,

did you try acpi=off and apm=off boot options?
machines of that era did not support acpi at all and didn't work well with apm too. If there are any power config options in BIOS, those should be disabled too.


anikin -- I've already tried those boot options -- that really doesn't apply to the rtai-hal.ko and apic problem. . I've also used those cheatcodes with the stock Ubuntu 8.04 Linuxcnc.

And many versions of Puppy Linux as well -- this computer has been used by me for 8 years with many puppies. It runs Precise puppy now and everything I throw at it in the puppy 5 range.)

The reason for shutting off ACPI and apm, if necessary with this (and other) computer(s) is to reduce latency.

btw, latency is very good with the TP 600e laptop -- about 16000 max as tested many times here.

But thank you for the suggestions!

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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 10:40    Post subject:  

Revolverve wrote:
Look already a complex project...choosing old laptop to run it make it harder.

&more problem could come http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php/english/forum/18-computer/25859-lenovo-thinkpad-600x-lpt-doesnt-work?start=20

Anybody happen to know how come there is a realtime option in startup services or do I miss something there..


Revolverve, this computer already runs LinuxCNC on Ubuntu perfectly and has cut parts on my mill without problem. Obviously the parallel port works fine! I don't know why the user in the link had problems with his parport..

The whole point of this thread was to get a simpler faster operating system like Puppy BEHIND LinuxCNC for older computers. rather than the problematic Ubuntu and 1.1 G Debian that the developers chose to ship it in as a liveCD. Modern puppies run on older computers EASILY,

Ubuntu does not. It was always a painful experience trying to get things to work in Ubuntu when I used it for a few months before discovering Puppy linux (version 3.10 at the time!)

If the user in your link had problems with the parallel port on his Thinkpad 600X I would be willing to bet that it is related to Ubuntu, or a mistake he made himself, not the computer. itself.

And people throwing their hands up in the air and saying "Gee, guess it's just too old hardware is an Ubuntu/Microsoft/Apple concept, foreign to the original aims of Puppy Linux. Puppy has always stood for principles of inclusiveness, efficiency, and the ability to use rather than dispose of so called "obsolete" hardware. And it does that extremely well. And the reason I'm so happy to use it and recommend it.

However, I do realize others have plenty of work to do besides focus on my interest in this thread, so if this project is getting too complex or time consuming, I'd certainly understand anyone who wants to re-focusing on what is important to them. Not a problem at all!

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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 10:52    Post subject:  

Saintless, thank you once again for all your help and interest in trying to get a fast efficient OS behind LinuxCNC!

I don't blame you for disliking working with Ubuntu -- it is totally over complicated and bloated compared to Puppy -- we get used to the way Puppy does things -- forgetting what a brilliant achievement it was by Barry Kauler in comparison with existing OS's at the time. He really streamlined things and "cut the fat". He also made things simple enough and stable enough to work for years rather than obsoleting OS's and hardware on a yearly basis. And made backward compatible improvements a standard for testing and advancement of the OS,

I will try your new version, and also want to re-iterate that I'm grateful (and amazed) at all the time and effort you keep putting into this). Please feel free to reduce that at any time you need to or get tired of this stuff!

I do think what you may have achieved will help many people, not just myself, and will be a much better way of spreading LinuxCNC especially for older machines, than the current LiveCD's.

Thank you once again! Downloading now........

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1999 Thinkpad 600e Lupu 528
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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:40    Post subject:  

Toni,

Your Ubuntu version runs LinuxCNC on the TP 600E as a LiveCD in JWM!

And it is indeed fast to have the desktop open (considering it is a LiveCD) fast to open programs.

And you've got Rox aboard, which I appreciate! That is also fast to navigate the filesystem.

In other words, all of the other Ubuntu slowdowns seem to have been eliminated, and performance is the kind of thing Puppy (and DebianDog) users have come to expect.

I haven't yet tried it on the mill, because I believe it should be installed for that. But I want to report back preliminary results here!

I did try also the program latency-test by typing that in the terminal. And I'm presently getting lower latency numbers that I even did before. Though we actually need resource hogs to truly test that.

glxgears runs at 120 fps.

Looking good so far!

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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 11:56    Post subject:  

In testing, just two minor JWM error msgs:

Warning color depth is 16 disabling icon alpha channel
Warning background image not found : /root/bg.xpm


And also hoping for a (wireless) network program.

Frisbee (or puppies stock version(s) would be a VAST improvement over Ubuntu's original 8.04 junk.

In Ubuntu 8.04 I rarely could connect on start up, (or by clicking on the network symbol twice to disconnect and reconnect). it took sometimes literally 10 minutes -- and I believe that was one of the resource eating programs running behind the scenes in the former Ubuntu. It would slow everything else to a crawl until it finally gave up ten minutes later.

I think that really slowed the system down, and you couldn't even turn the thing off. I tried several older PCMCIA wireless cards (of that era --ath type) -- none were recognized or activated without loading madwifi and windows drivers. Even then it only connected occasionally. It was a mess compared to puppy or debiandog on the same computer and same cards which loaded and connected on start-up without a hitch. They were also straightforward to configure or set up. Ubuntu tried to make everything hidden and automatic -- so you wouldn't see what was going on, or have the ability to configure or fix it.

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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 12:37    Post subject:  

Hi, Vtpup.
I'm one of the owners of very old computers and I use for every day work P-III 600Mhz + 256Mb Ram and SWAP with DebianDog-Squeeze version. If I can help you get your old laptop running the mill it will be great Smile
The problem with ubuntu is it is based on debian but it is actually much different. Debian is very easy to shape, modify and cut to the size of DebianDog. But Ubintu was a real pain to make this testing iso in similar way.
vtpup wrote:
I haven't yet tried it on the mill, because I believe it should be installed for that. But I want to report back preliminary results here!

I think it is important to test this because if it does not work we are wasting time working on this testing iso.

What do you need to install the mill and test it for real work? Can you make second ext partition about 2Gb on your hard drive for full install for this testing iso? And can you make around 1Gb swap partition or file? All needed is to extract the files from filesystem.squashfs there and add menu entry in grub for full install. I will post instruction how to do it when you are ready. Just post the hard disk drive configuration - partitions with sizes, fs type and what is installed on them.

Wifi - the system has fully working apt-get and you can install easy wicd or other network manager. In jwm it will work fast. But I will test frisbee if it works.
I already have some kind of solution for startx problem and checking what else can be removed.
I'm not sure I can patch the initrd.gz file successful for using save file for frugal install but I will try.
Jwm errors are not important. One of them is for missing background image. Easy to fix.
If the mill works with this iso I will make it smaller as much as I can and try to configure the desktop more, but most of the settings like file assocaitions will be left for the user (in this case you) to make.

Few important questons for files I can remove to make it smaller:
Do you need linux-headers included?
Do you need man and doc files included?
Do you need different localization files than english included?
What other programs you like to have included in the iso? We are making the iso for you mostly so now it is the time to tell what is important to have included. Like web-browser for example.

Edit: OK, startx problem fixed and I think I can make frisbee work. There will be remaster script included to allow you easy make new filesystem.squashfs for live CD from all changes added in full install. It will be easy to install/uninstall programs in full install and rebuild different versions of this live CD.

Toni
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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 15:49    Post subject:  

Toni, thanks again!

No problem to install or check out mill -- I just mean I hadn't done that yet by last post. Will do today, of course!

re. "Wifi - the system has fully working apt-get and you can install easy wicd or other network manager." Except apt-get only works if already connected, yes?

re.
Do you need linux-headers included?
No -- I can download if needed

Do you need man and doc files included?
No again, availbable online

Do you need different localization files than english included?
No, though others might -- this might become popular -- unless these are easily downloaded and installed, too.
But no, I don't need them personally.

"What other programs you like to have included in the iso? We are making the iso for you mostly so now it is the time to tell what is important to have included. Like web-browser for example. "

Wow, thank you!

I just use Seamonkey as with other puppies

Galculator is the calculator I use.

I use pfind a lot -- unless you already have something similar on board.

rox I prefer over xfe.

JWM desktop (like puppy has) with program icons would be nice, unless too large -- I can live without desktop icons though -- just the menu is fine.

I can use apt-get, but synaptic makes it easier to look for and see what you've got (if the program isn't too big.) Again, not absolutely necessary.

gftp, -- sometimes used -- again not absolutely necessary. Most file transfer is by thumb drive from my main laptop/CAD computer.

A text editor like geany or similar would be nice.

I think of the TP 600E as a machine controller computer not a general purpose machine, so not too many extras are actually needed, and they can always be downloaded later if I really feel I need to have something -- as long as wireless works.

Besides I can always dual boot this computer into a Puppy (or DebianDog) frugals through grub entries if I need to do more -- and that would keep the Ubuntu side uncluttered and reliable.

Cool!!!

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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 3882
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 16:32    Post subject:  

OK, Vtpup.
I think all could be done in the next few days.
To test full install you need to copy the content of filesystem.squashfs to empty ext partition. I use DebianDog but it should work from any Puppy.
You need to have around 1Gb swap file or partition for the unsquashfs command to work without problem on low ram machine. You can make temporary 1Gb swap file from DebianDog -> Utility -> Make Swap File

If you have empty ext partition (sda1 mounted on /mnt/sda1 for example) unsquash the module with this command:
Code:
unsquashfs -f -d /mnt/sda1 /path-to/casper/filesystem.squashfs

And add this in grub menu to boot full install:
Code:
title Ubuntu full
 uuid f35e5975-24bc-4dc0-b306-183d6760fb60
 kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.24-16-rtai root=UUID=f35e5975-24bc-4dc0-b306-183d6760fb60 ro
 initrd /boot/initrd.img-2.6.24-16-rtai

I use uuid instead rootnoverify (hd0,0)
You can find the uuid of the partition with blkid command.

Toni

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vtpup


Joined: 15 Oct 2008
Posts: 1289
Location: Republic of Vermont

PostPosted: Thu 18 Sep 2014, 17:07    Post subject:  

Okay toni, will do later, but thought I might try running mill from frugal install you mentioned earlier.

I have that install running now, but how do I mount drives from jwm?

I tried "mount /dev/sda5" in terminal for instance but "no listing in mtab or fstab"

It's getting close to evening here and I might not have time left to test on mill -- maybe, we'll see..

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Acer Aspire 5349-2635 laptop Tahrpup.
Acer R11 Chromebook no pup
1999 Thinkpad 600e Lupu 528
Acer Iconia A1-830 tablet no pup
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