Standardization of Puppy Linux Desktop and App Platform

What features/apps/bugfixes needed in a future Puppy
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mikeb
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#76 Post by mikeb »

Alan didnt mention that he was an employee, so I thought you might have assumed he was just some random person 'acting' like he knew what he was talking about. My bad, I assumed that part.
no problem...just wanted to clear that point in one very heated thread.

Enough random persons here already :D

mike

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Q5sys
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#77 Post by Q5sys »

mikeb wrote:
Alan didnt mention that he was an employee, so I thought you might have assumed he was just some random person 'acting' like he knew what he was talking about. My bad, I assumed that part.
no problem...just wanted to clear that point in one very heated thread.

Enough random persons here already :D

mike
:)

My personal opinion is that if communication was clearer, things would be a lot better all around.
Some times the concept of 'better communication' gets distorted into just being more words instead of better words.

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Smithy
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#78 Post by Smithy »

What do you think about using the Droid Font for Desktop and maybe the Noto font for Web browser as a "standard"?

I was testing it out as a system font and it seems to work very well, especially if QT is used and selected as the font in the sadly neglected root Trolltech.conf.
It clears up some not very nice overlapping look in Qjackctrl, after changing fonts in that app, married with cleanlooks over the GTK+ look.
Maybe VLC and other QT would benefit from this?

Hopefully, not too random, and still on topic even if a little simplistic :)

https://packages.debian.org/source/wheezy/fonts-droid

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Q5sys
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#79 Post by Q5sys »

Smithy wrote:Maybe VLC and other QT would benefit from this?
I personally really like QT, but the feeling I get is that most in the Puppy world prefer gtk. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's always the feeling I've gotten. I think in part that's because of our long standing use of GTK and GTK based apps like gtkdialog.

On my list of things to do after I win the lottery is make a qt puppy, but those guys keep picking the wrong numbers, so you'll have to talk to them about making that happen. lol

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Smithy
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#80 Post by Smithy »

Ha, I don't trust those computers running the lottery machines, I've seen one of them fail once and it was glossed over on the big night..hmmm..

I actually like GTK engine, what I was getting at is whether a little more coding in the Trolltech.conf file could produce good results when we slip into an app that uses QT. So far the tones and pallette examples that I have seen are garish, guess I need to learn how to get some pastel codes and put them in the .conf.

As standard in Puppy, the QT apps are erm..grey, just need a little spice but not too much. This example is not bad looking on Qjackctrl (I don't have VLC or other apps) but it could get a bit Aaaaaaaaaaargh after a few weeks lol.
And you can see the problem with dejavu overlapping in the display.

Code: Select all

[Qt]
font="DejaVu Sans,12,-1,5,50,0,0,0,0,0"
GUIEffects=none
Palette\active=#f0f0f0, #1c1c1c, #bfbfbf, #9b9b9b, #818181, #5e5e5e, #e6e6e6, #ffffff, #f0f0f0, #070707, #111111, #9b9b9b, #3c3c3c, #ffffff, #6464e6, #e664e6, #0e0e0e, #000000, #040404, #e6e6e6
Palette\inactive=#f0f0f0, #1c1c1c, #bfbfbf, #9b9b9b, #818181, #5e5e5e, #e6e6e6, #ffffff, #f0f0f0, #070707, #111111, #9b9b9b, #222222, #f0f0f0, #6464e6, #e664e6, #0e0e0e, #000000, #040404, #e6e6e6
Palette\disabled=#535353, #181818, #bfbfbf, #9b9b9b, #818181, #5e5e5e, #4a4a4a, #ffffff, #5a5a5a, #060606, #0e0e0e, #9b9b9b, #0e0e0e, #535353, #22224a, #4a224a, #0c0c0c, #000000, #040404, #e6e6e6
style=cleanlooks
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Q5sys
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#81 Post by Q5sys »

Smithy wrote:Ha, I don't trust those computers running the lottery machines, I've seen one of them fail once and it was glossed over on the big night..hmmm..

I actually like GTK engine, what I was getting at is whether a little more coding in the Trolltech.conf file could produce good results when we slip into an app that uses QT. So far the tones and pallette examples that I have seen are garish, guess I need to learn how to get some pastel codes and put them in the .conf.

As standard in Puppy, the QT apps are erm..grey, just need a little spice but not too much. This example is not bad looking on Qjackctrl (I don't have VLC or other apps) but it could get a bit Aaaaaaaaaaargh after a few weeks lol.
And you can see the problem with dejavu overlapping in the display.
Yea QT apps sometimes need a bit more effort when trying to get a theme right... but when that's done... they look great. I do have to admit I like some of the new GTK3 styles, but that's incompat with puppy. So if i have to do work to go to a new framework... i'd personally put that effort into QT than GTK.

I know some people just theme all their QT apps with their GTK theme. Doesn't work so well the other way around.

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#82 Post by bark_bark_bark »

I like GTK2, but GTK3 is just plain terrible and a major step backwards.
....

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mikeb
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#83 Post by mikeb »

do you not use the qt config app...makes it pretty easy to create a nice theme? Should be no need to hand code the config, it does it for you in a visual way.

If a 'standard' approach is used to configure fonts in general they look pretty smooth and clear on any puppy...you know like other distros do (I got the happy arrangement from slax).... and fonts like dejavu are more than up to the job when done properly.

Only thing with qt is they seem to move the goalposts just like gtk...up to 5 now and a lack of backwards/forwards compatibility. In the case of puppy I guess its the devil you know...or is it gtk2 apps are the smaller ones? qt vlc is magnitudes larger than when it was a wxwidgets build.... had people manically trying alternative guis for it. Also broke many skins which was a bummer but that was not actually a qt issue.
gtk1 is fast and stable and can be made to look nice :D
fltk...sweet but too basic for much.
X....well enough said.
wxwidgets...seems a little out on its own in spite of its gtk connection.

Not sure if webkit is a blessing or a curse.... many apps only need the 2 core libraries.

If there is a benefit of 'standard' methods its not having to rebuild/resource packages every time a new puppy is released....means more time for developing neat ideas and less fighting with integrating with the system and build environment. Its not fun from a programmers point of view.....
Even with our beloved scripts, see the peeing around shinobar had to do to make scripts portable as files and configs jump from one place to the next with each version. Also means much more chance of bugs creeping in with such complex code and s-l-o-w.

mike

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Smithy
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#84 Post by Smithy »

Hi Mike, well I have a "bastardised" QT that just has enough to run Qtractor and Jack, (probably VLC and a lot more, put it in manually sort of thing, a bit daft, but at the time I was looking to keep ram up for lots of linear audio tracks and also a snappy boot up time. Sort of like the partial Qt idea used by the guyz.
Actually snappy boot up time is a major requisite, like you I don't want an 800mb Puppy, a 200 300mb odd is absolutely fine. And the people I've done a Custom Puppy for, love it and comment how fast it is compared to windows.

But if they looked about inside and tried to do anything other than facebook, email, printing, bit of graphics and listening to music/ videos, they would soon wither, slither and wilt like an ice cream on a hot summer's day :wink:
The innards are not for the faint hearted. And it's nort like windows. They did quite like typing code into the "television set" (roxterm lol) when I was helping them with a remote assistance to sort a coupla things.

I'd rather some people just do some trolltech confs that look fab and incorporate one, because the attempts I did make with the graphic interface on my big puppy were rubbish. It's not the sort of app that I want to have hanging around, because once a trolltech is done, that's it lol.

You're right about the fonts, it was the setup in Qjackctrl that was causing the overlapping, the fonts were set big by default, but there seems to be a bug where they don't "stick" in qjackctrl.conf, they go back to bold, where size 9 dejavu book gives a lot nicer look, with cleanlooks over gtk+.

It would be good if all the puppy bits stayed in the same place, so then a new kernel for new hardware and modules could be slipped in easily, judging from what you say about shinobar's experience.
Guess that would be a very good standard to push for.

Don't know about gtk1, whatever's been in the Puppy 5 series (gtk2?) is cracking, Ziggy's Stardust and Aurora are glossy and good! :wink:
Last edited by Smithy on Sat 28 Feb 2015, 11:47, edited 1 time in total.

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mikeb
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#85 Post by mikeb »

qtconfig-qt4 240K on here...like you I used it to create a trolltech file and then put it away again.

Yes easier life... at least now a .desktop file in /usr/share/applications does something if somewhat slowly.

Also for support...info from one puppy can be meaningless to the user of the next.... eg ..look in so and so to change file doo dah...oh its not there.

Then its cruelly suggested to use pfind to find the moved item... :D

mike

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mikeb
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#86 Post by mikeb »

Actually must say there is a general trend to a better use of standards in puppy....others see the value too.

The only forced window manager/software I see happening is JWM/ROX...ie 'its not a puppy without it'.... that to me is unacceptable and takes away choice and their non standard behaviour which has to be pampered to makes development clumsy.

mike

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Smithy
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#87 Post by Smithy »

mikeb wrote:eg ..look in so and so to change file doo dah...oh its not there.

Then its cruelly suggested to use pfind to find the moved item... :D

mike
:lol:

Maybe I will start a thread, Show us yer Trolltechs, that name will get a few tinfoil hats twitching..

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mikeb
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#88 Post by mikeb »

Oohh look a virus...we are all infected....the TV said so.... ahhhh

Actually seems to have application specific stuff in there...not sure if the config or the apps themselves do that. Guess it could just be deleted.

mike
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Smithy
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#89 Post by Smithy »

mikeb wrote:Actually must say there is a general trend to a better use of standards in puppy....others see the value too.

The only forced window manager/software I see happening is JWM/ROX...ie 'its not a puppy without it'.... that to me is unacceptable and takes away choice and their non standard behaviour which has to be pampered to makes development clumsy.

mike
Yep that's true, there needs to be a foolproof way of switching, because we should respect the fact that different people like their different combos, personally mine is rox and openbox tint2, but I only need to go forward, backward, cut copy paste and drag.

It will go back to JWM/ROX now with WM Switcher thanks to the Puppy Guys, but it was a lot of xdg or whater futzing.

Some people might want other things that maybe other combos do much better. Yikes, over and out from me for now

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mikeb
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#90 Post by mikeb »

duck and cover eh :D

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Smithy
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#91 Post by Smithy »

Thanks for posting a Trolltech, the fonts were neater, and a touch of lavender on the panels, didn't notice you posted that.

No I was making room for others to post on the subject of Standardisation of Puppy Linux Desktop and App Platform :) and was late.

Seems like the thread stalled though.
Which could be a subtle way of saying, maybe stop updating the kernel and everything else, then it will be standard 'cos it will always be the same...and the tumbleweed flows across the dusty puppy plain.

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mikeb
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#92 Post by mikeb »

dont see what kernel changing has to do with standards... more about core functions like memory handling and perhaps some newer drivers.

This thread comes and goes.

Talking of updates....not seen many in terms of operating systems in the past 15 years that actually does anything better....they stilll run programs on the hardware...thats it really...just cos the hardware is changed to justify selling a new item does not really change whether a program does something useful.

mike

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nic007
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#93 Post by nic007 »

The massive size of internet browsers is really becoming a problem now for people with old systems.

darry1966

#94 Post by darry1966 »

nic007 wrote:The massive size of internet browsers is really becoming a problem now for people with old systems.
Yep and the ram used is ridiculous.

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Smithy
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#95 Post by Smithy »

Well, loitering around the Trolltech file, I noticed this in root/config/autostart.

" This is a new directory for starting applications when X starts
It is to be populated by .desktop files only, anything else is to be
ignored.
This is part of the deprecation of /root/Startup
For guidelines on autostart and creating .desktop files see :
http://standards.freedesktop.org/autost ... atest.html"

So where would one put a fixmenus file (I created a little.sh file) to deal with those stubborn desktop files that won't appear sometimes.

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