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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Puppy Projects » Next Puppy Development
Do we really need a NEXT PUPPY ?
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anewuser

Joined: 05 Feb 2012
Posts: 70

PostPosted: Sat 24 Jan 2015, 13:24    Post subject: Re: Do we really need a NEXT PUPPY ?  

Robin2 wrote:

But a big part of the reason I switched from Xubuntu to Puppy was to get off the "update treadmill"
.
.
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Of course there is a need, from time to time, to bring out a new version when an error is discovered.



Depends on use case, and enthusiast/hobby need. For most this is not a project about customers/users/$$$. It's more about trying new script hacking/programming ideas, mods and custom libs improvements. These make the 'update trend' I think.

For others it's about getting old hardware to function again, simple and fast. These only need stability, and eventual spare apart updates. Gotta love all those motherboards work again.

With that said, for instance, I'm currently in need of office applications on wary 5.0 or racy5.5 on sfs form because abiword isn't cutting it anymore for that I will probably try lazy puppy on the future while keeping customizing my puppy to my needs.

puppy is the best for cheap used netbooks compared to windows7 default installations that they came up with (using a intel gma3150 motherboard, also known toshiba n455 aka if you need to test something on this let me know)

I also want the newer quirky builds to try f2fs and not wear down my usb drives. That's only possible with a 3.8 linux kernel, which is not on wary/racy or lazy puppy I think. So a new excuse to get me a new puppy hehe

Puppy is all around pretty stable, and great for satisfying particular needs.

PS: I'd also try a https://www.jolicloud.com/jolios netbook/laptop based puppy. For instance, I can't seem to adjust screen brightness, volume seems pretty low compared to windows7's settings -default os now borked. But laptop based specifically to improve battery life reporting and customizations. Also some keyboards keys fixed on windows7 don't work as expected or at all on puppy -functions keys-
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 11081

PostPosted: Sat 24 Jan 2015, 13:40    Post subject:  

...yes the hobby distro...I forget that at times. I get far too serious and thats simply a bad idea on here Smile

Its handy for experimenting on.... not used it as default system since puppy 2.12 (which as it happens was the main testbed) .

F2fs... hhhmm...I think there are better ways reducing flash wear ...if that still applies with newer devices...eg loading all to ram including saves...then the flash stick can be removed...cant get less wear and tear than that and no fancy file systems needed either...indeed the aforementioned puppy 2 can do it as a variation of the multisession approach....been using it for years.

Office suite...well softmaker is a good one if it fulfills your needs...otherwise its libreoffice time. Packages for both abound here.

mike
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chillinfart

Joined: 22 May 2006
Posts: 90

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 02:49    Post subject:  

I started with 1.x versions (2006) and when i changed to 4.0 on my dead PIII, that was a big leap. During years Puppy took it's own way to fix bugs or add apps, without need of take repositories from others as happens today.

I just changed to Slacko (2011-2012) when Wary and LuPu was too old for my netbook, specially wifi and video drivers (F+++ Intel). Xorg server did too a big leap. I remember when puppy even had lack of a devx package and it should be remastered on iso before sfs implementation, Xorg also needed a separate entry (DRI and Mesa drivers).

And now i changed Slacko in favor of Lighthouse testing built-in video drivers and bundled packages (works better on my netbook and desktop system). Now i hope that Fathouse gets mature.

That movements took a lot of time, at least one year, the recommended time to reinstall Windows. So isn't surprising for me to see why people moves to a fresh new iso every year.

From mikeb thoughts, working on a certain kernel gives more life than moving to a new one. However, puppy projects are moving currently to get specific goals and when they want to run, leaves behind some needs.

i.e. Intel Atom still being a headache to optimize, when i tried to compile intel drivers on Slacko's kernel 3.10.2 i got a slow boot and the need to change parameters on xorg.conf to make it stable. And lastest intel drivers requirements are too far from Slacko and Slackware 14 (Mesalib 9.2.5 can boost 3D performance on N450 family, but i had no luck to compile it without gaps).

Yeah, it's a dilemma.
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Atle

Joined: 19 Nov 2008
Posts: 598
Location: Oslo, Norway

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 07:28    Post subject:  

In my understanding, Puppy covers basically 3 major areas of hardware

64 bits
32 bits with or without PAE
486/old machines

Assuming that is right, that is the 3 "families".

32bits is for sure the larger family and the most used, like Slacko and Lupu.

Then there is the older stuff like Turbopup, and 1,2 and 3 versions that still does a good job on really low ram/CPU.

As for the 64 bits, FatDog really rules and there are others and new ones in the pipeline.

What I miss is that all the great ideas hidden in the forum is implemented in maybe at least one version of each category.

I have seen so much great software written, only to die out somewhere hidden in the forum.

I can give examples:

Shareinternet(Puppy as a router)

Hostapd(Puppy as a access point to share internet, gaming or webserver)

LAMP(A standard good server based maybe on lightweight Hiawhata in stead of Apache)

I bet there are lots more to be mentioned.

Just to give some more examples, easy ways to:

Delete data properly(proper disk wipe)
All categories with the .exe installer

Just some thoughts


atle
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Robin2

Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 07:46    Post subject:  

I've been thinking more about all this and taking account of various comments.

I reckon I got off on the wrong track with Puppy - I thought I caught a glimpse of the Holy Grail.

When I saw that there was a "simple" way of building distros with Woof as well as the opportunity to convert an existing setup into an SFS I imagined that it may be possible to escape permanently from the update treadmill.

Two things have changed my mind.

First, even if I did take the time to figure out Woof it would be completely impractical to understand the differences between different kernel versions and cross reference those differences to the different versions of application programs and the features in those programs that I like or dislike or need or don't need. In other words I would not have the knowledge to build a better distro than any of the standard distros.

Second neither I nor AFAIK any of the Puppy community has any control over the onward progress of the Linux kernel developers and they seem to have scant regard for long term backwards compatibility - probably on the basis that it is not too difficult for an application developer to build a new version to go with a new kernel.

On the other hand Puppy has shown me that it is very practical to try out the next version in such a way that I could easily revert to the previous version if I wanted to. Whereas the normal Xubuntu upgrade process is very much one-way.

Of course, having figured out how easy it is to install different versions of Puppy in different partitions on my hard drive I have come to realize that I could do the same thing with Xubuntu - the partitions would just need to be a little bigger.

...R
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 11081

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 08:01    Post subject:  

Well one feature of frugalism is you can have multiple installs on the same partition. eg ..I have the 4 pups, two slaxes and my experimental lucid/slax on one.... others would have many more.... for a tidy life.

Can you turn of the constant updates in the main distro world...after all I do that with windows and life is peachy?

By the way still running setup from 2008 as the default.... some minor updates and tweaks but its effectively still the same....all apps are sfs so they are changed independently. Having a stable working platform does mean one less thing to have to fiddle with.

Quote:
i.e. Intel Atom still being a headache to optimize, when i tried to compile intel drivers on Slacko's kernel 3.10.2 i got a slow boot and the need to change parameters on xorg.conf to make it stable. And lastest intel drivers requirements are too far from Slacko and Slackware 14 (Mesalib 9.2.5 can boost 3D performance on N450 family, but i had no luck to compile it without gaps).

yes it seems they were a PITA when the newer graphics chips were released and are still so... I fortunately grabbed intel boards with 945 graphics and a netbook with the same...they play nicely with ANY system.... anything newer would undoubtedly drive me nuts.

mike
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Robin2

Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 08:18    Post subject:  

mikeb wrote:
all apps are sfs so they are changed independently.


That sounds interesting - how would I make that happen?

...R
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 11081

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 08:30    Post subject:  

Well puppies can use sfs files...indeed puppy IS an sfs file... unfortunately the normal system limits it to 5 or 6 but you can load more on the fly or at boot using the sfs loader thats around/included... (sfs_load, sfs-on-the-fly...I use my own script as it happens)

An sfs is just a read only archive of the app's file tree.... they are layered on top of each other so as far as the system is concerned they are installed in the usual way and are seen withing the normal file system.

If an sfs is removed then its as if it has never existed...no leftovers.

In this scenario your app can be any compatible version it wants to be....eg if you wanted the latest firefox/java/whatever you get rid of the old sfs and load the new one...job done.

mike
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Robin2

Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 14:43    Post subject:  

mikeb wrote:
An sfs is just a read only archive of the app's file tree....


I guess my question was really about how to convert a DEB into an SFS.

I haven't found any clear explanation online. I did find stuff about converting a DEB to a .PET and, separately, about converting a .PET to a .SFS

Is that the way to go?

And, AFAIK a DEB does not contain all of its dependencies. I presume the SFS must contain them? If that is correct, what is the easiest way to get all of them?

...R
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dancytron

Joined: 18 Jul 2012
Posts: 956

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 15:39    Post subject:  

Robin2 wrote:
mikeb wrote:
An sfs is just a read only archive of the app's file tree....


I guess my question was really about how to convert a DEB into an SFS.

I haven't found any clear explanation online. I did find stuff about converting a DEB to a .PET and, separately, about converting a .PET to a .SFS

Is that the way to go?

And, AFAIK a DEB does not contain all of its dependencies. I presume the SFS must contain them? If that is correct, what is the easiest way to get all of them?

...R


RSH (lazy puppy guy) has an application called PADs that converts debs and pets into sfs files.

It's on this page http://lazy-puppy.weebly.com/programs.html
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 11081

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 15:47    Post subject:  

I just use the built in tools...

open and unpack the deb(s) with xarchive into a folder and then
mksquashfs /app_folder/ new_app.sfs

slax has a deb2lzm script doing basically the same....lots of ways to crack this nut...that one handy for a quick test...grab the parts..make sfs of all independently..once working and happy make you final build of everything trimmed and ready to go.

thing is if you do it manually you can remove any surplus items...there are usually a pile of those...

mike

edit... I can spell again!!

Last edited by mikeb on Mon 26 Jan 2015, 06:02; edited 1 time in total
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Robin2

Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Posts: 180

PostPosted: Sun 25 Jan 2015, 18:54    Post subject:  

Thanks, both of you.

I will try those ideas tomorrow.

...R
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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 11081

PostPosted: Mon 26 Jan 2015, 06:01    Post subject:  

wow typo city...I will edit.

Sometimes the wizards are more complicated than the actual job in hand...on a general note its worth digging in and getting to know how this stuff works Smile

mike
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dejan555


Joined: 30 Nov 2008
Posts: 2798
Location: Montenegro

PostPosted: Mon 26 Jan 2015, 09:12    Post subject:  

Robin2 wrote:

I guess my question was really about how to convert a DEB into an SFS.

I haven't found any clear explanation online. I did find stuff about converting a DEB to a .PET and, separately, about converting a .PET to a .SFS

Is that the way to go?

And, AFAIK a DEB does not contain all of its dependencies. I presume the SFS must contain them? If that is correct, what is the easiest way to get all of them?

...R


Yes, you need all dependencies, I guess you can check that option "Download only" in puppy's package manager (I don't know how good it is in resolving dependencies at this point)

I believe there are scripts on forum to automatize process of converting multiple debs in sfs, but basically it's just extracting them all in one directory and making sfs of that directory, something like this (writing from the top of my mind) :

Code:
#!/bin/bash
#Assuming you're running script from a separate directory where there are only debs needed for sfs:

targetname=$(basename "$PWD")
for i in *.deb;do dpkg-deb -x $i;rm $i;done
cd ..
dir2sfs $targetname/

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slavvo67

Joined: 12 Oct 2012
Posts: 1436
Location: The other Mr. 305

PostPosted: Tue 10 Feb 2015, 23:59    Post subject:  

Hi guys:

There's a GUI utility called PADS that works quite well in combining all debs, pets, into one larger pet. The only complaint that I have is that you have to choose each file individually to add (one at a time) instead of using something like the old CTRL and left click to highlight and add multiple files at once. Still, the little annoyance is worth the convenience.

Best,

Slavvo67
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