Windows 10 October 2018 Update deleted your files to tidy up

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disciple
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Windows 10 October 2018 Update deleted your files to tidy up

#1 Post by disciple »

It's hard to believe even Microsoft could be this incompetent!

From https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/10 ... r-testing/, all emphasis mine, and there are links there to the announcement from Microsoft:
Microsoft has figured out why the Windows 10 October 2018 Update deleted data from some systems and produced a fixed version.
...
The software giant claims that only a small number of users were affected and lost data and has published an explanation of the problem.
...
Certain directories, including Documents, Desktop, Pictures, and Screenshots, are known as "Known Folders." Known Folders are special, in that software can ask the operating system for the folder's path, without having to hardcode any names. For example, an application wanting to save files in the Documents folder can ask the operating system for FOLDERID_Documentsand the operating system will translate this to the actual location on disk. Typically this would be the "Documents" directory in the user profile.

However, it doesn't have to be. The storage location of the Known Folders can be changed, a capability called Known Folder Redirection (KFR). This is useful to, for example, move a large Documents folder onto a different disk. Software asking for the Documents Known Folder location will be given the redirected location so it'll seamlessly pick up the redirection and use the correct place. This is why programs shouldn't just hardcode the path; it allows this kind of redirection to work.

Redirecting one or more Known Folders does not, however, remove the original folder. Moreover, if there are still files in the original folder, redirecting doesn't move those files to the new location. Using KFR can thus result in your files being split between two locations; the original folder, and the new redirected folder.

The October 2018 Update tried to tidy up this situation. When KFR is being used, the October 2018 Update will delete the original, default Known Folder locations. Microsoft imagined that this would simply remove some empty, redundant directories from your user profile. No need to have a Documents directory in your profile if you're using a redirected location, after all. The problem is, it neither checked to see if those directories were empty first, nor copied any files to the new redirected location. It just wiped out the old directory, along with anything stored within it. Hence the data loss.
AT won't quite say it, but seriously, are these guys utter morons?
Adding insult to injury, there are ways in which Windows users could have enabled KFR without really knowing that they did so or meaning to do so. The OneDrive client, for example, can set up KFR for the Documents and Pictures folders, if you choose to enable automatic saving of documents and pictures to OneDrive. The current OneDrive client will set up KFR and then move any files from their original location to the new OneDrive location. Older versions of the OneDrive client, however, would set up KFR but leave existing files in the old location. The October 2018 Update would then destroy those files.

This scenario is not especially esoteric or extraordinary, and it's not some difficult interaction with third-party software or hardware. KFR is widely used, and the situation in which both the old and new locations contain files is easy enough to arrive at; software such as the OneDrive client used to do it, and when enabling KFR for the Documents folder through Explorer, you can elect not to move files to the new location. It beggars belief that this "tidying" feature was developed without any consideration of what might happen if the old folder still had files in it. And even worse, the only reason that the October 2018 Update deletes those original folders is aesthetics. Some Windows users had apparently complained that the old, empty folders were still left even after enabling KFR. Microsoft wanted to "tidy up" those empty folders by deleting them. The rest, like affected users' files, is history.
In response the company has promised to update the Feedback Hub tool so that the severity of bugs can be indicated. Many people reported this data loss bug, but none of the reports received many upvotes, with Microsoft accordingly disregarding those bugs. If the bugs had been marked as causing data loss—the highest severity possible—then they may have received the additional attention that they deserved. Microsoft hasn't, however, explained why this update didn't receive any kind of "release preview" distribution or testing. There are no guarantees that this would have caught the bug, but it would have meant that an extra round of people would have installed the update onto their systems, and who knows, one of their bug reports might have gotten lucky.
Yes, instead of their own proper testers, they now have this "Insider" program, with millions of people testing their software for free, which should actually be far more effective, but they still don't have a clue how to run it properly.
Had they not even taken a cursory look at the way issue trackers tend to operate for open source software? The ability to assign "severity" is such a basic feature.
And they constantly ignore important feedback, whether from the Insider program or end-users of official releases... any bets on whether they really learn anything from this episode?
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#2 Post by nosystemdthanks »

good thing the upgrade to this sort of quality experience was mandatory or close to it for so many users.

sounds like windows 10 really is full of benefits-- like additional space for new files!
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Windows updates

#3 Post by disciple »

nosystemdthanks wrote:good thing the upgrade to this sort of quality experience was mandatory or close to it for so many users.

sounds like windows 10 really is full of benefits-- like additional space for new files!
I think you'll find it is actually additional space for more "operating" system, not files.
In fact, I just found out that apparently when Windows wants more space for updates it just deletes other partitions without asking. And apparently the original "upgrade" from Windows 7/8 would delete partitions on other hard drives if necessary.
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#4 Post by disciple »

AT won't quite say it, but seriously, are these guys utter morons?
Apparently they are.

It turns out there were at least two more major file deletion bugs in the October 2018 update.
1. A bug where if you tried to move or cut/paste something out of a zip, if the target already existed, instead of a dialog asking what you wanted to do, it would silently fail, but delete the file from the zip anyway. So you lost the file you wanted, but didn't realise it.
2. A bug in a feature that deletes user profiles that have been unused for a certain length of time. i.e. it deleted user profiles that were still current and needed.

There's a conspiracy theory that Microsoft is actually sabotaging Windows because they want to kill it off...
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#5 Post by infromthepound »

There's a conspiracy theory that Microsoft is actually sabotaging Windows because they want to kill it off...[/quote]

Hooray!

JB

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#6 Post by nosystemdthanks »

disciple wrote:There's a conspiracy theory that Microsoft is actually sabotaging Windows because they want to kill it off...
i thought they were going to buy red hat after they bought github, maybe ibm thought they were too and said "hmm, what if instead we could charge them for it?"

not that ibm ever seems to go according to plan (unless thats the real plan, etc. etc. etc.) ive compared ibm to jacques clouseau a lot recently. they always come out alright, but its hard to tell how:

"you idiot! that was a 34 billion dollar acquisition!"

"not anymurrrrrrr..." microsoft will buy things just to kill them off, ibm i think wants to keep things they have only a little use for as pets and charge people money for admission. i imagine in the large business sector theyre doing more than that-- plus, you know, research.

is this really a strategy of theirs, or is it just an old habit? can old companies learn new tricks?

maybe the moves from microsoft are better explained by older motivations than newer ones. sure, you have to look fresh. youll need a really big marketing department, and to make moves that are at least, different on the surface. as for microsoft breaking into hardware-- i used a microsoft "inport" mouse in the 80s. not just a dongle-- it came with its own card for the xt bus!

sure, they have their own hardware platforms now. i mean, copying things apple does to make money... microsoft certainly never tried that one before. "lets try the phone first, and if that doesnt work we can make a laptop for 'creative' types." if youre making money on something, being surprisingly lousy at doing the same thing rarely stops microsoft from trying. we can laugh at ballmer for the zune, but maybe the surface is the zune of laptops. at least we know the windows phone was the zune of that market. how was that a real change?

the surface is a windows ipad that comes with its own keyboard. man, thats original! (to be fair, i knew a guy with one of microsofts clunky digital tablets circa 2002. which was only a much-improved ripoff of the newton, complete with stylus.)

just dont try the strategy of shamelessly copying "other companies ideas" yourself-- they have an extensive collection of bogus patents, which they are still getting people to agree to so it matters less if theyre completely illegitimate.

step 1: write bogus patent
step 2: brandish patent at competition unless they sign agreement
step 3: use signature to prop up the patent (we arent there yet, but why bother with step 2 otherwise?)

its like the matrix: we know the legal environment microsoft works in is fictional, we have david ruschke standing in for morpheus-- but the stupidity of organisations makes it real.

"i dont understand. how do you invalidate a patent that one of the largest, most litigious corporations on earth backs up with a practically unlimited legal team?"

"you cant bend the system itself, it will fight back harder than you can try. you just have to realise: there is no patent."

"there is no patent."

if microsoft kills off windows (that is a pretty wild theory, it would be funny if its true) they will say they own gnu/linux again. and theyll have the testimony of lots of companies that its true.

maybe this is why the linux foundation is so important-- linus props up suse-- and suse props up microsofts portfolio. years later, when it comes around full circle, you have the linux foundation: open source has finally made itself the julia roberts to microsofts richard gere that it always dreamed of.

even if thats all as bogus as the patents themselves, it gives them a lot more time to charge money for this complete non-service to anybody.
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#7 Post by James186282 »

I was having some problems getting Virtual Box working on Xenalpup and made the brilliant decision to break out a laptop with Windows 7 and run my one of two programs (Circad / Radio Programming Software) on a machine bare metal.

I used to joke there is nothing you can do that doesn't waste a day if your trying to do anything on Windows. Uhh... Make that an underestimate.

First I had to dig out a credit card to pay for an update to G-Prot (A virus scanner that doesn't take up almost all of your CPU 24/7 like Norton Utilities. Then I thought I ought to do something about the dire warnings about not having an updated OS so like a fool I watched while the auto update software sat and spun (doing nothing) I searched for an answer which was that this really didn't work and you needed to go to a particular web site to download and run a program to make the program that updates the program.... program. I did that and other this this installing ok (I think) it again sat and spun doing nothing. So... I searched again and somewhere it said the only way the new update would work was to download a file of SP2 jazz and let it update from the computer. SIGH...

I'm getting pissed at this point and try this and again. Sit and spin. So.... I learn at another web site that I have to turn off auto updates by using some obscure CLI commands to shut down three services. *Which didn't solve the problem. So..... I found out how to get automatically (don't) update to shut the #$#%ing thing off. I install the service pack by clicking it directly and it announces its doing something! Nothing happens for a while but I have lost interest in monitoring this and ignore it long enough to see that it is actually moving the activity bar a fraction of a hair. I end up putting a sticky note on the screen with a line to see if its actually moving. This last step btw was day 2. So it installs the service pack and I decide to hell with auto down loads that can't seem to be made to work and seek out critical updates and directly download them. I download 30 or 40 of these then observe that each page filled with links to updates for windows 7 are pages 1 and 2 of 200+ pages of updates. I scream and I attempt to pull my own head off for wasting this much time and ponder how does Microsoft still exist?

Do real people spend their lives waiting for computers to update all the time? Are Microsoft "Certified" people really "certifiable?" Like NUTS? How can so many updates be required so often? Life is short and you spent it waiting for Windows to do something.... I want to take up boxing and train on a punching bag with the Genuine Window logo.

I decide the solution to my problem is to either not allow this Widows 7 box access the internet and forget critical or any other updating... Or just set up a different puppy where I know how to get VirtualBox to run and do my Cad stuff on a Virtual Windows XP image file and never allow it to connect to anything except a shared directory.

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Windows - One of the reasons God invented Therapy and poisonous crap! Or poisonous crap or whatever...

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#8 Post by 8Geee »

Windoze "Ack Ack Ack Phhhht!", Bill the Cat approved.

LOL ROTF. Just about right, just ask Bob.

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#9 Post by perdido »

8Geee wrote:
Windoze "Ack Ack Ack Phhhht!", Bill the Cat approved.

LOL ROTF. Just about right, just ask Bob.

8Geee
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#10 Post by Burn_IT »

I used to joke there is nothing you can do that doesn't waste a day if your trying to do anything on Windows. Uhh... Make that an underestimate.
Well that just depends on your ability doesn't it??
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