Librepup 6.0.2.2

[musher0]

Hello again, mavrothal.

Ok, got through to your comment 591 with a simpler browser.

You said:

... However, if the translation of the variables in the 3 different scripts is not identical to the spacing, punctuation and capitalisation, PPM will fail. ...

Observe the same character count as the original in the translation of
a variable? That's easy: don't change it!

Probably you mean in the translation of the definition of the variable. I'm
a translator by trade and I can tell you that that is next to impossible if
you want fidelity. Even simple words with identical meaning such as "no"
and "non" have a different character count. Or "bridge" and "pont".

I suspect the problem could be solved more simply at the programmer's
end. Isn't there a way the programmer can make the code more flexible,
more tolerant of these unavoidable variations in the character count?

As to "punctuation and capitalisation", why would they be a problem? It'll
be a bit of the same. The following sentence is identical in character count,
capitalization and punctuation.

Le chat est noir. = The cat is black.

Fine. But in this one:

Ces chats sont noirs. = Those cats are black.

the English has one character more than the French. If you want fidelity in the above translation, the French has to have one character less.

Professional translators and translation editors operate with this general
rule: a good translation is about 5 to 10 % longer than the original text,
because the "spirit" of the languages are different. The originating and
target languages don't matter. It's the translation process that needs this
5-10 % leeway.

To explain it in a very rough and incomplete manner: besides the
character count of the individual words themselves, as illustrated above,
"short colloquial expressions" in one language have to be sort of "briefly
explained" in the target language, because no language has the exact
equivalent of another language's "short colloquial expressions".

Each language has its own way of condensing meanings, of giving
sentences a "punch". What is a "short and punchy" expression in one
language most of the time has to be "explained in full" in the target
language for the new readers to understand it. Irrespective of the type
of text.

I'll stop here. Sorry for being so long.

With the hope that you'll consider the above remarks.

BFN.

musher0

[mavrothal]

I suspect the problem could be solved more simply at the programmer's
end. Isn't there a way the programmer can make the code more flexible,
more tolerant of these unavoidable variations in the character count?

Maybe.
Till then try the suggestion here, and in case you can not read this it says:

# ATTENTION TRANSLATORS: The translation in the variables below must be *IDENTICAL*
# to the point of spacing, capitalization and punctuation, with the ones used in
# pkg_chooser.sh, or PPM will break.
# It is highly recommended to copy/paste the corresponding strings from there.

[musher0]

I suspect the problem could be solved more simply at the programmer's
end. Isn't there a way the programmer can make the code more flexible,
more tolerant of these unavoidable variations in the character count?

Maybe.
Till then try the suggestion here, and in case you can not read this it says:

# ATTENTION TRANSLATORS: The translation in the variables below must be *IDENTICAL*
# to the point of spacing, capitalization and punctuation, with the ones used in
# pkg_chooser.sh, or PPM will break.
# It is highly recommended to copy/paste the corresponding strings from there.

Do you have any intention of changing your policy?

[mavrothal]

Do you have any intention of changing your policy?

I do not have any policy.

[musher0]

Hello again, mavrothal.

I spotted this in pkg_chooser.sh:

> "PPM is currently running with these configuration options:"

Now that right there is impossible to translate into French submitting to
your restrictions, because of the punctuation. In French, the colon
must be preceded by a space. It's a rule of French typography.

The proper translation for it is:

"PPM tourne actuellement avec les options de configuration suivantes :"

The English "these" and "those" are difficult to translate in French, we
don't have the distinctions, we translate both by "ces". So we have to
develop to make the meaning clear.

But we can go around the difficulty with the form "Voici":
"Voici les configurations avec lesquelles le PPM tourne actuellement."
But the character count is still off, and a "Voici" sentence is supposed to
end with a regular period, although a colon is tolerated nowadays.

No, I sincerely believe your restrictions are unrealistic and do not foster
the production of quality translations. Count me out until your GetText
system allows for more linguistic flexibility.

I'm sure French users don't want a contrived translation that will sound
unnatural to their language.

I'm only one man from one culture, though. May I suggest that you seek
advice from other non English-speaking Puppyists or translators about the
applicability of your restrictions in their language.

Best regards.

musher0

[musher0]

Do you have any intention of changing your policy?

I do not have any policy.

Ok, ok. What do you call it then?

[mavrothal]

I spotted this in pkg_chooser.sh:
> "PPM is currently running with these configuration options:"

a) Please go to the PPM thread or github if you have issues with PPM
b) Please try to understand and do not make wild extrapolations.
I provided a specific link to the code.
The "precision" issue refers to 2 specific scripts and 6 strings total. Nothing else.

[musher0]

I spotted this in pkg_chooser.sh:
> "PPM is currently running with these configuration options:"

a) Please go to the PPM thread or github if you have issues with PPM
b) Please try to understand and do not make wild extrapolations.
I provided a specific link to the code.
The "precision" issue refers to 2 specific scripts and 6 strings total. Nothing else.

I'm sorry, but to be frank, your restrictions are going against my
professional ethos. I'm not extrapolating wildly. A potential client would
impose those restrictions on me, and I'd refuse to work for him.

You're imposing those restrictions and I'm refusing to abide by them.
Are we clear?

I tried to explain, and you're not reading or you're not providing any clue
that you've read my post. I have no time nor energy to spend on such
"monologues". You should be bringing something of value to the
discussion as well. Again, sorry for being so frank, but there you have it.

In view of the above, I'm also seriously reconsidering my potential
participation in the woof process.

Respectfully,

musher0

[L18L]

I suspect the problem could be solved more simply at the programmer's
end. Isn't there a way the programmer can make the code more flexible,
more tolerant of these unavoidable variations in the character count?

Maybe.

Yes it is the programmers's job of course.

If he is using identic (=same) TEXTDOMAIN for those 3 different scripts there will be no problem at all:
there is just 1 (one) translation used (identically, what else?) in several different scripts.

cheers

[musher0]

Hello all.

Anyway, the above monologue about mavrothal's GetText restrictions was
not enterily a loss of time. It pointed my problem-solving in the right
direction.

My PPM is back to its speedy self if I launch it from console like so:

Code: Select all

LANG=en_CA;ppm &

but this gives "unsupported language, falling back to C" (or something to
that effect).

So I go with the flow and type:

Code: Select all

LANG=C;ppm &

This way I get speed and no errors.

In other words, users of non-Anglo cultures, beware! Please take note
that, at this point in time, librepup's edited PPM works properly only in
English.

Before you ask: the sentence above only states a fact and issues a "user
alert" to non-Anglophones who would be tempted to use their previous
localizations of PPM. It is a report of my recent experience and not meant
as a political statement of any kind.

BFN.

musher0

[mavrothal]

You're imposing those restrictions and I'm refusing to abide by them.

You can do as you see fit but let's be clear on who is reading and who is not. The "restriction" is to translate the same string that appears in the same context (ie 'Auto Install'), in 2 different scripts in the same way.
There are 6 strings total that need this "precision" and appear in 3 scripts total.
You can translate each string anyway you want with any kind of punctuation you want. As far as I'm concern you can translate 'Auto Install' as 'God may help us!'. The "restriction" is 'Auto Install' (in our example), since is also a variable, to be translated in all 3 scripts as 'God may help us!' to the point of spacing and punctuation.
If your professional ethos demands to be able to translate 'Auto Install' as 'God may help us!' in one script and as 'May the force be with you!!' or 'God may help us?' in another, I guess you will not be doing this translation.

[mavrothal]

If he is using identic (=same) TEXTDOMAIN for those 3 different scripts there will be no problem at all:
there is just 1 (one) translation used (identically, what else?) in several different scripts.

So, even all PPM scripts could be under the same textdomain, say 'PPM' and this would not generate any other problems other than rendering all previous translations defunct?

[L18L]

If he is using identic (=same) TEXTDOMAIN for those 3 different scripts there will be no problem at all:
there is just 1 (one) translation used (identically, what else?) in several different scripts.

So, even all PPM scripts could be under the same textdomain, say 'PPM' and this would not generate any other problems other than rendering all previous translations defunct?

Yes.
Suggest to take

Code: Select all

export TEXTDOMAIN=petget

for all those scripts.

Existing translations can easily be created for the new file when running momanager:

Code: Select all

cd /tmp/momanager
msginit petget.pot
for f in $(ls petget___*.po) 
do 
 msgmerge $f petget.po
done
msgfmt petget.po -o - > /usr/share/locale/${LANG%_*/LC_MESSAGES/petget.mo}

should work, but not tested.

[musher0]

mavrothal wrote:
> You can translate each string any way you want with any kind of
punctuation you want. As far as I'm concern you can translate 'Auto Install'
as 'God may help us!'. The "restriction" is 'Auto Install' (in our example),
since is also a variable, to be translated in all 3 scripts as 'God may help us!'
to the point of spacing and punctuation.

Ah. In translators' jargon, the usual term for this is "consistency".

[mavrothal]

If he is using identic (=same) TEXTDOMAIN for those 3 different scripts there will be no problem at all:
there is just 1 (one) translation used (identically, what else?) in several different scripts.

So, even all PPM scripts could be under the same textdomain, say 'PPM' and this would not generate any other problems other than rendering all previous translations defunct?

Yes.
Suggest to take

Code: Select all

export TEXTDOMAIN=petget

for all those scripts.

Existing translations can easily be created for the new file when running momanager:

Code: Select all

cd /tmp/momanager
msginit petget.pot
for f in $(ls petget___*.po) 
do 
 msgmerge $f petget.po
done
msgfmt petget.po -o - > /usr/share/locale/${LANG%_*/LC_MESSAGES/petget.mo}

should work, but not tested.

OK then.
Hopefully your script will work or some more work should be done by you guys.

BTW could you provide a pull request for your updated momanager? Woof-CE still has BK's old one.

[L18L]

Hopefully your script will work

It will not.

Your

OK then.

has showed that just pkg_chooser.sh is concerned. No need to use a script for these minor changes.

BTW could you provide a pull request for your updated momanager? Woof-CE still has BK's old one.

Do what you want to do, it is permanent work in progress, latest version always here

-----------
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic. ... 198#814198

[musher0]

Regarding the bug I reported on above,

...Is my PPM broken? I mean: how long is it supposed to take for PPM to
download the fully-enabled conky from the belenos repo?...

the answer is no.

Here are a stop-gap script and a temporary *.desktop file for non-English
Puppyists to use until their PPM localization file is updated for their
Librepup.

Each of the files below has add'l info. Please read carefully.

The script:

Code: Select all

#!/bin/sh
# /usr/local/bin/alt-ppm
#
# Lanceur de rechange pour / Substitute launcher for 
# /usr/local/petget/pkg_chooser.sh
#
# /////////////////////////////////////////////////
#
# (English info follows.)
#
# Objectif : résoudre le problème de la lenteur du PPM 
# édité par Iguleder pour LibrePup-6.0.2.1 d'ici à ce que
# son fichier de localisation soit à jour. 
#
# S'adresse aux utilisateurs dont la variable de langue 
# LANG N'EST PAS LANG=en_US, LANG=en_AU, etc. En d'autres 
# mots, si la langue de votre système est l'anglais, 
# N'UTILISEZ PAS ce script.
#
# /////////////////////////////////////////////////
#
# (L'info en français est ci-dessus.)
#
# Goal: solve the slowness of the PPM edited by Iguleder
# for LibrePup-6.0.2.1 until it gets an updated 
# localisation file.
#
# Essentially for users whose language variable LANG is NOT
# LANG=en_US, LANG=en_AU, etc. In other words, if the language
# of your system is English, DO NOT USE this script.
# 
# musher0, 8 oct. 2015. GPL2.
####
cd /usr/local/petget
[ "${LANG:0:2}" != "en" ] && LANG=C
$PWD/pkg_chooser.sh

The adapted Puppy-package-manager.desktop file:

Code: Select all

[Desktop Entry]
Version=1.0
Encoding=UTF-8
Name=PPM
Icon=/usr/share/pixmaps/puppy/package_add.svg
Comment=Puppy Package Manager
Comment[fr]=Gestionnaire des paquets Puppy
Exec=alt-ppm
# Exec=/usr/local/petget/pkg_chooser.sh
# Important:
# Comment the alt-ppm line and un-comment pkg_chooser 
# line once your localization has been updated for the
# PPM Iguleder produced for librepup-6.0.2.1.
Terminal=false
Type=Application
Categories=X-SetupUtility
# X-Setup-puppy
GenericName=Package Manager
#
# Filename of this file:
# /usr/share/applications/Puppy-package-manager.desktop
#

How-to:

• * Place the above files in their respective directories.
  * Make the alt-ppm script executable.
  * Re-run your fixmenus utility (or similar file if not using the jwm wm).

I know this solved my PPM slowness problem.
Any questions, please ask.

Best regards.

musher0
~~~~~~~
N.B. -- Do not even think of renaming my script to "ppm". There is a
good reason I named it "alt-ppm": the "pkg_chooser.sh" script does an
internal check so that a "ppm" file and a "pkg_chooser.sh" file cannot
run at the same time, even if "ppm" would call "pkg_chooser.sh".

[mavrothal]

BTW could you provide a pull request for your updated momanager? Woof-CE still has BK's old one.

Do what you want to do, it is permanent work in progress, latest version always here

Thanks. I usually try to do what I want to do
In this case I was hoping for you take care maintaining momamager in woof directly, instead of me (or any puppy builder) checking the thread to see if it has changes and adjust the woof files or building process to get the changes in.
If you have concerns about other people messing with your code, could be a git subproject in woof-CE where you can have (exclusive?) access. But if you do not want to have to do anything with github/git/woof etc, will be up to the next puppy builder to get the latest and greatest from the link above.

[L18L]

In this case I was hoping for you take care maintaining momamager in woof directly, instead of me (or any puppy builder) checking the thread to see if it has changes and adjust the woof files or building process to get the changes in.

I am here when and if I can to help a bit but Woof-CE would be better not relying on an old and sick dog like me.

There are others, younger ones....
http://bert2.be/simple_guide_for_translators-0.2.3.html

Enough derailed Iguleder's thread about librepup which I am not able to run
cheers

[mavrothal]

I am here when and if I can to help a bit but Woof-CE would be better not relying on an old and sick dog like me.

"Old sick dogs" is the norm around here.
Besides, it was a "puppy" 11 years ago. In human hears is now around 70