So ... This is it? Puppy is dead?

[Iguleder]

So ... is Puppy dead?

If Barry is retired and no one wants to take his place as a community leader, Puppy is lost. Moreover, if the community-effort to build Puppy 5 is all about using the junky Ubuntu packages, Puppy lost it. It won't support old hardware and Ubuntu's huge size and bloat won't do wonders with Puppy. This is no longer Puppy. Just a silly Lubuntu-like distro with JWM.

I'm against all corporations, including Microsoft, and I really hope that you are too. But I'm also against Ubuntu and every single product or service offered by Canonical. They use free software to make money and stuff non-free software into their products, which are presented as totally "free". That's against my values, both as a free software user, advocate, programmer and contributor. I'm really sorry, but I won't support any corporation or company such as Canonical. And yes, using an Ubuntu-derivative supports Canonical, indirectly.

Additionally, I believe that Puppy is rotten in its core. All puplets suffer from the same problems beause the Puppy "base" simply needs improvement and seems stuck somewhere in 2007. Puppy needs to be totally rebuilt for i486, with JWM, a good old X and whatever. That's something Quirky or any Ubuntu-based Puppy cannot offer.

The only way to keep Puppy alive is simply rebuilding and rebranding it. If Barry retired, we can thank him, start a new project and change the development model. You may call it a fork, I just see this as rebranding and ongoing improvement, a new generation, rebirth. All the community needs is willingness.

The current development model of Puppy is bad and it simply doesn't work. People invent nifty improvements here and there, which eventually appear only on one puplet and get lost in the heaps of topics of these huge forums. Puppy remains old, stupid and stands in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies. This cannot happen in a normal distro. Especially not in the 10th most popular one.

The Puppy "base", all the architecture-independent data, stuff like the directory structure, desktop files, all that, must be stored on some git repository or something, so people can change it. That's true open development model. Puppy, until now, was developed in a very close and stiff way. Also, Puppy mustn't include Flash or anything that is not free. That is bad for Puppy and good for corporations, who find another crowd of unwilling users. Alternatives exist. That's one of the reasons why free software exists at all.

I'm sorry, but if Puppy goes to the Ubuntu direction, I'm outta here. There's nothing I can do anymore. I've written many articles for the wiki (see my sig), many guides, packaged software and I truly believe that I did a lot for the Puppy community. I feel betrayed. I will NOT support Ubuntu, Adobe or any company. And I will not assist Puppy on its way to the grave.

EDIT: I'm not spitting at Barry, the community or Puppy. I'm not trying to insult anyone. I'm full of appreciation and thankfulness.

[tasmod]

Bye. Close the door on your way out.....

[ttuuxxx]

Puppy isn't dead, its just Barry's blog which is, as for puppy being Ubuntu based umm no, If anything it will be T2 based, the exact same as 4.0 was based on T2. Quirky is a reduced driver version of the latest T2, Tpup is T2 full around 110MB worth. So to recap puppy 4.0 barry based it on T2, Tpup/Quirky is based on T2, Barry compiled hundreds of T2 packages and you can see them at
http://bkhome.org/binaries/t2/8.0rc/
http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/dis ... es-quirky/
Hey I'm not happy with Barry locking his forum, but I'm not running away yet, neither is anyone else.
Just because someone is tired of out of context response doesn't mean its time to shoot the towel in, Lets not forget he is working on the main release Quirky/Tpup really of all the 5 series, that one is the one that means the most due to it being around 20MB smaller than the next, plus its been compiled.
ttuuxxx

[nooby]

Just because someone is tired of out of context response

I do apology if I am part of what Barry reacted to. I do my best to stay on topic always.

to the OP.

You could start coding and show you can live up to your own expectations.

I guess html5 can play flash contents? Make a linux that show all flash content without needing adobe flash.

The proof is in making the pie taste good. To complain about the recipe is very easy to do. To make something that works is really harder.

[bugman]

Puppy remains old, stupid and stands in the same place for years instead of rushing forward and adopting new technologies. This cannot happen in a normal distro. Especially not in the 10th most popular one.

although i agree about the albuntu* repositories, and i would not have used the word 'stupid', the above is what some of us love about puppy, and might be the reason why** it is a top-ten distro

* the enver hoxha edition

** the balaclava that is grub 2.0, left-hand buttons, etc.

[relax]

[Iguleder]

By "stupid", I meant "not smart" in the way it does things. No offense.

[bugman]

By "stupid", I meant "not smart" in the way it does things. No offense.

surely you realize that one of puppy's goals is to provide relatively current software for antique computers

thus the retro kernels, slow adoption of the new for the sake of newness

my computer seems to have become auto-expanding of late , but i could still be running puppy on the one i started with, happily

[nooby]

surely you realize that one of puppy's goals is to provide relatively current software for antique computers

Could not the goal be widened to work well with any kind of computer?

Or to have two kind of puppies. Puppies for old computers and Modem access and then the modern out of the box puppy5 something that works with the latest hardware.

I surely want versions that works for old computers. I don't like computers to be ditched, they should be reused with linux when the hardware are too old to be M$ compatible with latest bling bling.

But I also want to be able to use the latest cheap small netbooks or mid something or tablets that are coming sooner or later.

[aarf]

Ooooh ... cooochie cooochie coo.
It's dummy spitting season again and so soon too.
Perhaps we could have a special forum section especially made and named "Dummy Spitting". Perhaps we could then have a perpetual dummy season since it seems so popular and well participated in. Some people also must believe that nothing could or will be achieved without it.
Yawn, go back to sleep. Take two aspirin it will be fine in the morning. If not you can always just slash your wrists. I am sure your mom has had enough practice with the band-aids by now.

[bugman]

Or to have two kind of puppies.

yes, that's the point of having the retro kernel in addition to the new kernel

[Sylvander]

When person A makes a calm, well-reasoned, argument.

Person B's response should not substitute insulting ridicule for an equally well reasoned rebuttal.

[jemimah]

But I also want to be able to use the latest cheap small netbooks or mid something or tablets that are coming sooner or later.

Yes this is the end goal of the Puppeee project. I need more developer firepower if this is going to happen any time soon though. Keeping up with the bleeding edge is harder, because it's a moving target.

---

In general, I think FUD like this post is extremely counterproductive. People who want Puppy to move forward should keep the criticism constructive and well informed. Making the social environment unfriendly and uncomfortable for developers is the fastest way to kill the project.

[nooby]

Would it be easier to get potential new devs to come forward if one set puppy up to be able to use sfs outside of pupsave and this way each new dev that get interested could chose to develop just the sfs' they are motivated to work on.

that way one retain the fun because to work on something that one dearly want to accomplish is rewarding while having to take care of things that one are totally bored doing is a PITA core thing to engage in.

And I guess newcomers to to linux would love to have a very modular linux that have exactly what one chose on ones own and not get forced to have by the established collective of Linux old timers that only like their old ways of doing things.

[Aitch]

Iguleder

You seem to have caught the puppyite virus

I recommend running a shower to clear your mind, and if that doesn't work.....
.....ask someone near to give you a tap on the head

Please don't contaminate the forum

Aitch

[jemimah]

And I guess newcomers to to linux would love to have a very modular linux that have exactly what one chose on ones own and not get forced to have by the established collective of Linux old timers that only like their old ways of doing things.

There already exists a very modular linux called TinyCore. Unfortunately, the initial learning curve is too steep for me. I look at their website, install their 10MB image, and I'm bored with it before I even figure out what I'm supposed to do.

The great thing about Puppy is that you don't have to customize it. The out of the box experience is pretty darn good for the size. Small size, fully functional, easily customizable - choose any two. The amount of engineering that goes into the Puppy SFS is not trivial. You can find this out first hand by downloading Woof (or the older Puppy Unleashed system might be more straight forward) and building your own puplet.

[jamesbond]

I wrote a long oratory posted but then I decided not to post it. Suffice to say that I agree with Jemimah and OzSouth's comment in Barry's blog.

Barry has kindly licensed his work as GPL, if you don't like his vision or decision, please feel free to fork it and create your own distribution (or even puplet, for that matter). Perhaps then you'll understand the kind of effort and PITA*) in creating, managing, and maintaining that distribution of yours. If you're a user, and you don't like what you see here, please feel free to distro-hop and find something better. Nobody's stopping you.

Remember, suggestions, feature request and feedbacks are always welcome, but "demands", "entitlement", and "threats" are not. Don't hold a grudge if your suggestions / feedbacks are not taken.

cheers!

*) If you're lovin' it, then maybe it's not a PITA. The moment you no longer enjoy it - we'll see if it's not PITA.

[shariebeth]

Iguleder

You seem to have caught the puppyite virus

I recommend running a shower to clear your mind, and if that doesn't work.....
.....ask someone near to give you a tap on the head

Please don't contaminate the forum

Aitch

I'm speechless.
Way to insult somebody who has forged ahead for the betterment of puppy as a whole, devoted so much time and energy and effort, and who is not afraid to speak his mind and does it in a civil manner. Somebody who is trying so hard currently to fix the ailments of our beloved puppy.
Everyone who has commented either here in forums or in Barry's blog loves puppy and uses puppy and knows future potential puppians. We know what is wanted, we know what is needed, and we want to help in the ways that we can; to guide the geniuses who CAN code so that they code what the users and potential future uses want and need! I have seen no mean spirited posting by legitimate users, but rather people who are desperate to see puppy live on...but are worried that it won't.
When someone asks for input then spits in their faces because it is not what was expected or wanted, that is discouraging to say the least. When a lot of needed hard work is ignored or thrown away, that is discouraging too. That someone is the one who should be thanking all of these talented contributors, not lobster (no offense intended to lobster, at least somebody has the decency to try to mend the gaping hole.)

I'm disgusted. I suspect this thread was created out of frustration and desperation because the more "appropriate and private" venue's were either ignored or blocked. Anyone who has the common sense and foresight to see what is happening, and speaks up, gets the shaft here.

Such a shame, puppy had spectacular potential, still does. I have been raving about puppy to everyone I deal with in other ventures. I really hope somebody who has the power or influence gets it together and listens to the regular user before it's too late.

I have great respect for all of the devs here, and the people who help with so much knowledge and willingless to devote time to the rest of us who are still learning. Most of the puplets and versions are fantastic, it's hard to choose just one! But please please please do not ignore that there are problems that can't be ignored and need to be fixed or all the good forks and side trips won't matter.

Maybe instead of smothering these people, listen to them. Stop playing puppy politics and get on with what needs doing!

[tlchost]

Stop playing puppy politics and get on with what needs doing!

Wellspoke

Thom

[Rupp]

n/t

[jamesbond]

Stop playing puppy politics and get on with what needs doing!

With respect - who exactly needs to do "what needs doing"?

cheers!