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 Forum index » Advanced Topics » Cutting edge
How do we deploy an empty pupsave at 1st boot in frugal?
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 4268
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Wed 05 Feb 2014, 09:26    Post_subject:  How do we deploy an empty pupsave at 1st boot in frugal?
Sub_title: Would solve the hiccups that occur now and then.
 

EDIT, March 2 2014. -- 4,32 Gb worth of pupsave files for Linux citizens, here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=762020&sort=lastpost#762020
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EDIT, Feb. 21 2014. -- Are you a Windows refugee? Then, please go to p. 4, here:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=760340&sort=lastpost#760340
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EDIT, Feb. 17 2014. -- Are you already a Puppy or Linux user? There's a beta1 solution
on p. 2, at:
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=758938&sort=lastpost#758938
Thanks.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hello all.

This is a question for experienced Puppy or Linux developers.

Puppy has had the problem at least since 2008. Sometimes creating a pupsave file for
frugal mode fails. Nobody knows for sure if it's the timing of the script, the way it
interacts with whatever else is going on in the Puppy sytem, the number of partitions,
the state of the drives, or the patience and skill of the user. At least as I write these lines.

One solution is to have a ready-made pupsave file zipped and tar-gized. (For ex., a
960 Mo empty pupsave file packed this way is a little over 3 k.)

In frugal mode, Is there a moment during the first boot, when we could deploy (I mean
de-tar and de-zip) such a file so it's all ready to use when we get to desktop?

Another way is to use a script that does the same thing. (+/- 2 lines). Again is there a
moment when we can execute such a script so the pupsave is already in place, ready
to use, by the time the user gets to desktop?

The advantage is obvious: no scratching of head as to the meaning of the questions,
no slippery fingers, and best of all, this method never fails. The target is a 100 %
success rate; not 90, 95 or 99,5 %. One hundred percent.

A reasonable default size could be used; the user can easily increase it as needed later.

Some consider that Puppy is losing users because of this bug. Indeed some newbies
who fail at creating the pupsave file do not bother enquiring on this forum and simply
turn to another distro.

I feel that playing the ostrich serves no purpose. Burying one's head in the sand
regarding this bug is not helping Puppy's popularity and/or Puppy newbies at all.

Many thanks in advance for any insight.

musher0

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8393

PostPosted: Wed 05 Feb 2014, 09:59    Post_subject:  

Its the init in intrd.. I even found one cause/fix on puppy 4 but it never got included.

Shame we are left with workarounds instead.

Actually most systems are configured during install...how its set up, save methods... Puppy tries to do it after a first run then guesses the layout during boot or more usually now with a host of parameters...so is neither one nor the other with a pile of quirks to keep you guessing since its guessing itself.

It would be far more structured to configure yer pup as part of the install and forget this setup at shutdown business altogether. (I probably grew from the multisession method)
I think I am endorsing your move. Smile

Compare the slax init and you will see a short simple boot since the user sets up his install and save before running anything as an example.

mike
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2602
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Wed 05 Feb 2014, 11:37    Post_subject:  

Hi, musher0.

I use puppy 2 years now and I think having puppy save file working from first boot has more disadvantages than advantages.
For example if something goes wrong on first boot it will be saved and it will make more difficult for new puppy user to fix it.
Maybe having empty save file compressed in tar or zip as optional (recommended) question to unzip this file or to create new one after first boot can solve the problem you pointed.

Toni

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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 4268
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2014, 14:45    Post_subject:  

mikeb wrote:
Its the init in intrd.. I even found one cause/fix on puppy 4 but it never got included.

(...)

Compare the slax init and you will see a short simple boot since the user sets up his install and save before running anything as an example.

mike


Hi, mikeb.

Point 1) Time to dust off your script and publish it to the world! Very Happy

Point 2) slax does it, eh? Ha-ha! That sounds intelligent! Care to explain a little more?

Thanks in advance.

musher0

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8393

PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2014, 14:55    Post_subject:  

point 1...did at the time of 4.12 release...it got revisited recently too so 4.12 users have a 'fixed' init...later pups are probably a little different...whether my fixes were included is anyones guess.

point 2... well although there was a simple script to create a save file within slax it could be done independantly.

A save file gets loaded and used with the boot parameter changes=savename ... it would be located in the slax folder. Format would be any posix one of your choice . Thats it...no need for any save first session scipt.

By the way changes=/slax would use a save folder ie the whole partition ..again decided when the install is done.

I added changes=archive.tar to use a tar save file... again this is done when installing not after a first run.

if changes is not specified a ramsdisk is used.

No scripted guesswork whatsoever.

mike
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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2014, 15:05    Post_subject:  

saintless wrote:
Hi, musher0.

I use puppy 2 years now and I think having puppy save file working from first boot has more disadvantages than advantages.
For example if something goes wrong on first boot it will be saved and it will make more difficult for new puppy user to fix it.
Maybe having empty save file compressed in tar or zip as optional (recommended) question to unzip this file or to create new one after first boot can solve the problem you pointed.

Toni


Hi, Toni.

I disagree that it has disadvantages. In frugal mode, everything is easily "correctable",
especially at this early stage (language and screen configurations, etc.). We just warn
the user NOT to install anything on first boot, only do the needed configurations.

As to recommended option of un-packing compressed file, it's been covered here
http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=754552&sort=lastpost#754552,
and a script variant is here: http://murga-linux.com/puppy/viewtopic.php?p=755724&sort=lastpost#755724
(I have no particular merit, I was inspired by previous posts on this forum and by the idea of the zipped swap files that slax provides.)

When do you deploy the persistence file on your "debian-porteus dog-cat" fork?
Before or after? It has to be before, no? Otherwise no personal configs are saved?

Best regards.

musher0

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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
Posts: 4268
Location: Gatineau (Qc), Canada

PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2014, 15:15    Post_subject:  

mikeb wrote:
point 1...did at the time of 4.12 release...it got revisited recently too so 4.12 users have a 'fixed' init...later pups are probably a little different...whether my fixes were included is anyones guess.cipt.

(...)

mike


Hi, mike.

Well, if you can find it again, it would be appreciated. I would like to find a way to deploy
a pupsave file ahead of getting to desktop, and suggest it as an alternative to the Puppy
user, but 1) I'd like to give credit where credit is due, if previous work was done
(meaning: your work); 2) co-operation (even sequential co-operation) allows for faster
development.

Just a couple of thoughts. BFN.

musher0

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 8393

PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2014, 15:29    Post_subject:  

The fix was to do with a save file creation not being offered if there was more than one initrd.gz present or non (ie renamed)..so not really concerned with premaking a save file.

Hmm premade safe files too... avoids the need for partitioning those sensitive windows installs.

Puppy seems to have a plethora of boot parameters now..if those are, as now, commonly used why not use it fully rather than having a hybrid mess of config at shutdown/config at boot as it is now. One or the other for a simple life.

mike
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saintless


Joined: 11 Jun 2011
Posts: 2602
Location: Bulgaria

PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2014, 15:50    Post_subject:  

musher0 wrote:
When do you deploy the persistence file on your "debian-porteus dog-cat" fork?
Before or after? It has to be before, no? Otherwise no personal configs are saved?

Hi, musher0.
In debian live the save file deploy happens after loading 01.sfs ( +02..03..sfs if there are ones) and after /live/cow is created
I think /live/cow = /initrd/pup_rw in puppy.
At least this is my understanding while reading init and live scripts in initrd file.
I'm not sure this is the way it works with puppy also.

Cheers
Toni

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musher0


Joined: 04 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2014, 21:47    Post_subject:  

saintless wrote:
musher0 wrote:
When do you deploy the persistence file on your "debian-porteus dog-cat" fork?
Before or after? It has to be before, no? Otherwise no personal configs are saved?

Hi, musher0.
In debian live the save file deploy happens after loading 01.sfs ( +02..03..sfs if there are ones) and after /live/cow is created
I think /live/cow = /initrd/pup_rw in puppy.
At least this is my understanding while reading init and live scripts in initrd file.
I'm not sure this is the way it works with puppy also.

Cheers
Toni


Thanks, Toni.

A live cow?! Very Happy I gather you live on a farm?! Very Happy (Just kidding!)


Nine Debian persistence files... Wink

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musher0


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PostPosted: Fri 07 Feb 2014, 21:57    Post_subject:  

mikeb wrote:
The fix was to do with a save file creation not being offered if there was more than one initrd.gz present or non (ie renamed)..so not really concerned with premaking a save file.

Hmm premade safe files too... avoids the need for partitioning those sensitive windows installs.

Puppy seems to have a plethora of boot parameters now..if those are, as now, commonly used why not use it fully rather than having a hybrid mess of config at shutdown/config at boot as it is now. One or the other for a simple life.

mike


Thanks for those infos, mike. I'll chew over Smile them.
In particular, I'll go back to the boot parameters and see if anything fits.

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mikeb


Joined: 23 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb 2014, 07:43    Post_subject:  

well since puppy parameters can include the save file name and where it is you must get pretty close Wink

Perhaps you could do all this as an extension of the gub4dos wizard.... which could just as easily handle a frugal install too... so wizard...
frugal installs,, adds grldr, makes requested save system and configures menu.lst to run it happily.

And best of all not leave the user in mid air Very Happy
That all sounds too sensible and though I never used it nimblex (slax clone) had a script to do a very similar task...imagine a real installer made for puppy...

mike
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musher0


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb 2014, 13:00    Post_subject:  

Hi, mikeb.

Thanks for the additional info. I was tempted by Nimblex way back when but I find KDE too
complicated. (My opinion only.) Nimblex's install script is no doubt worth looking at.

For the record, and out of fairness, "ASRI éducation" has made a Puppy installer.
I've never tried it, though.

BFN.

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mikeb


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PostPosted: Sat 08 Feb 2014, 15:21    Post_subject:  

KDE is too restrictive ..and the over use of the letter K is even more rife than P for puppy...and yes its very confusing to do simple things.

It tries to be windows and does succeed in mimiking the sludginess. KDE4 is just a painful shiny thing that makes vista look slimline.

The answer I found was to use xfce4 instead..halfs the size of the iso and doubles the performance. Smile At least the modular nature of slax makes it dead easy to change.

mike

ps ..I have featherweightlinux and it used kde 3.2 I think...that was actually quite sprightly in comparison...something happened along the way (feature stuffing)
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musher0


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PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb 2014, 18:09    Post_subject:  

Hi, mikeb.

Maybe I need new glasses, but I couldn't find anything close to the subject in the
Nimblex docs.

The status of research now is to open the initrd.gz, find the proper line in BK's init script --
maybe just before it shows the multiple pupsave files (when you have more than one) --
and introduce there a couple of pupsave creation lines with some sort of checking.

BFN.

musher0

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